335 replies to this topic

[noskich]

Vi ste onih 10%, a eno i Msh vas je tu svrstao.



Opet se vrtimo u krug.
Pazi, bitan je student, itekako je bitan, jer su ljudi hvala bogu različiti pa će jedan "ujedati" u svojoj struci sutradan a drugi će biti neki šrafčić u nekoj firmi/ustanovi/državnom organu etc. Međutim, poražavajuća je stvar da imaš 90% teorijskog gradiva i da se prosečno studira 6-7-8 godina, jer to za čoveka znači još 2-3 godine poluvolonterskog rada da bi stekao potrebna praktična znanja. I kad se osvesti, ima 30 godina života, psa i biciklu. I velike komplekse.

To je ubitačna stvar.

Ja se sa tobom u principu slazem. Jedna je stvar samo studiranje u kome covek moze da se ostvari i trudom nesto postigne jer je to samo do njega, ali nakon tih studija da li ce se on baviti strukom i da li ce imati prilike da napreduje nazalost nije samo do njega (izuzetak su naucni radnici, mada i tu ima politike i te kako). Dosta tu ima i srece i veza i politike (ne samo u smislu stranacke politike, vec i politike firme i uspostavljenih odnosa u njoj), a i sto kazu ljudi u HR "organizacione kulture" pa sjajan strucnjak ostane bez posla jer se ne osmehuje dovoljno, ne igra golf ili ne nosi casual odecu petkom.
A nije svaka struka takva da moze da bude freelancer kao ovaj gore navedeni primer, nego ili radis za organizaciju ili si nezaposlen.
I nije to tako samo u Srbiji vec skoro svuda ukljucujuci i famozni "Zapad". Nevidljiva ruka, sto bi rekao Adam Smit, kako kome zapadne.
Neko je isao u skupu privatnu srednju skolu sa bogatom decom pa se ne brine za veze, nekome rodbina sredi ili radi za porodicnu firmu, a naravno imas i onih koji uspeju da dobiju internship u toku studija, pokazu se pa onda ih prime na graduate program. Ima svasta.

Donekle lutrija, kao i u ostalim sferama zivota. Ti mozes svojim trudom povecavati verovatnost uspeha i stvarati sebi sanse, ali sta ce biti na kraju ne zna se.

A izuzeci su npr. Japan i Koreja gde najvece firme vrbuju najbolje nesvrsene studente tako sto ih stipendiraju i ugovaraju posao pre diplomiranja. U ovim zemljama svi studenti do jednog pocinju da traze posao jednu godinu PRE diplomiranja ako vec nisu izabrani kao najbolji.

Edited by noskich, 23 November 2010 - 14:55.

[Nimrod]

A izuzeci su npr. Japan i Koreja gde najvece firme vrbuju najbolje nesvrsene studente tako sto ih stipendiraju i ugovaraju posao pre diplomiranja. U ovim zemljama svi studenti do jednog pocinju da traze posao jednu godinu PRE diplomiranja ako vec nisu izabrani kao najbolji.

Izvini, a sto su Japan i Koreja izuzeci? Silni dodiplomski studenti se ubise na praksama posle druge i trece godine studija ovde u US, ne bi li dobili ponude pocetkom poslednje godine studija. Videh isto u Nemackoj, u UK, u Kanadi.

[noskich]

Izvini, a sto su Japan i Koreja izuzeci? Silni dodiplomski studenti se ubise na praksama posle druge i trece godine studija ovde u US, ne bi li dobili ponude pocetkom poslednje godine studija. Videh isto u Nemackoj, u UK, u Kanadi.

Naravno, oni koji ne studiraju overseas, vec u Japanu/Koreji. Podrazumeva se.

[Tribun pučki]

@tomas.hokenberi

Morao sam ovo da postavim ovde

Secondly, American legal education is far more participatory than the traditional lecture method used in civil law education. Rather than relying on scholarly treatises, American law schools use the "case method" -- studying casebooks containing actual court decisions to derive legal rules. Moreover, professors have traditionally used the "Socratic" method of teaching in which the professor asks a series of questions thereby guiding the student toward the correct responses. All students are expected to read the assignments and take part in discussions. Many professors consider class participation to be an integral component of the final class grade.
....
American law school classes are taught either as lecture courses, or smaller seminar courses. Lecture courses may range in size from approximately fifteen people for a specialized course such as Admiralty or Conflict of Laws to perhaps sixty or more for a class such as Secured Transactions or Corporations. Lecture courses, particularly those which have a large number of J.D. students, generally are taught using the Socratic method and have a single examination at the end of the course which determines the grade. The larger the course, the more likely it is that it will be taught by a full-time faculty member, rather than by a practicing lawyer who teaches as an adjunct professor.

http://www.llm-guide...e-united-states

Rekoh ti da je nebo i zemlja.

Edited by Tribun_populi, 25 November 2010 - 02:34.

[tomas.hokenberi]

@tomas.hokenberi

Morao sam ovo da postavim ovde



http://www.llm-guide...e-united-states

Rekoh ti da je nebo i zemlja.

Nema spora - ali te podsecam da pre nego sto mogu da zapocnu te studije, potencijalni studenti moraju prethodno da zavrse ili kompletne ili barem 3 godine nekih drugih studija, tako da mogu da pristupe studijama prava vec potkovani drugim opstim (i teorijskim) obrazovanjem.

Dalje ucenje na "primerima" ne iskljucuje teorijska znanja, jedina razlika je u tome kako se ona izlazu.

Da li bi se bunio da pre upisa "pravne skole", moras prethodno da zavrsis filozofiju, istoriju, matematiku ili psihologiju? Sve to nema nikakve direktne veze sa pravnom praksom (a ni sa popunjavanjem menica). A upravo to je obrazovni put tipicnog pravnika u SAD.

Law School Requirements - What it Takes, in a Nutshell, to Apply to Law School


Every law school has a set of requirements, what I have referred to as the law school requirements, that are the bare minimum standards that all students - no matter how "special their situation" - must meet. For the most part, every law school shares the same objective and subjective requirements, though the quality of these requirements may vary from school to school.

The first law school requirement for essentially all law students is that they obtain an undergraduate bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university before attending law school. In connection with obtaining this degree, the graduate must submit a transcript to his or her prospective law school so that the school can evaluate the student's grade point average ("GPA").

Next, every prospective law student must take the Law School Admission Test ("LSAT"). As with the GPA, different schools may have different standards when it comes to their minimum required LSAT score, but every school requires that a score be submitted.

The above factors constitute the objective factors that every law school will use to evaluate law school candidates. Fortunately, most law schools do not make law school admission decisions based solely on objective criteria unless your GPA and LSAT scores are exceptionally high.

Many of the subjective factors are not requirements, but two generally are. These are the personal statement and recommendation letters. The law school application personal statement gives prospective law students the opportunity to demonstrate their individuality, address deficiencies or other problems in his or her application and, of course, demonstrate writing ability.

Similarly, letters of recommendation give the law school admissions committee the opportunity to gather extrinsic information regarding the law school candidate from someone besides the prospective candidate.

There are other subjective requirements that may be considered by a law school in making an admissions decision, such as diversity issues and familial relationships with the school, but such matters are not required to be considered for admission.

The above items are the law school requirements, but the greatest success goes to the law school applicants who go above and beyond the law school requirements and give the law school admissions committee something extra. The greatest rewards in life go to the outstanding, and when it comes to getting into law school its no different.

This article may be freely reprinted or distributed in its entirety in any ezine, newsletter, blog or website. The author's name, bio and website links must remain intact and be included with every reproduction.

H. Jefferson, Jr. is an expert on on law school admission, having applied to and been admitted by 11 of the top law schools in the United States. To learn more about the the techniques and strategies you can use to get into the law school of your choice, visit http://www.coverttactics.com.

H. Jefferson, Jr. is an expert on on law school admission, having applied to and been admitted by 11 of the top law schools in the United States.

To learn more about the the techniques and strategies you can use to get into the law school of your choice, visit http://www.coverttactics.com

Article Source: http://EzineArticles...._Jefferson,_Jr.

http://www.abanet.or...relaw/prep.html

Preparing for Law School

Prepared by the Pre-Law Committee of the ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar

Introduction:

There is no single path that will prepare you for a legal education. Students who are successful in law school, and who become accomplished professionals, come from many walks of life and educational backgrounds. Some law students enter law school directly from their undergraduate studies without having had any post-baccalaureate work experience. Others begin their legal education significantly later in life, and they bring to their law school education the insights and perspectives gained from those life experiences. Legal education welcomes and values diversity and you will benefit from the exchange of ideas and different points of view that your colleagues will bring to the classroom.

Undergraduate Education:
The ABA does not recommend any undergraduate majors or group of courses to prepare for a legal education. Students are admitted to law school from almost every academic discipline. You may choose to major in subjects that are considered to be traditional preparation for law school, such as history, English, philosophy, political science, economics or business, or you may focus your undergraduate studies in areas as diverse as art, music, science and mathematics, computer science, engineering, nursing or education. Whatever major you select, you are encouraged to pursue an area of study that interests and challenges you, while taking advantage of opportunities to develop your research and writing skills. Taking a broad range of difficult courses from demanding instructors is excellent preparation for legal education.

A sound legal education will build upon and further refine the skills, values and knowledge that you already possess. The student who comes to law school lacking a broad range of basic skills and knowledge will face a difficult challenge.

Pre-Law Advisor:
Undergraduate institutions often assign a person to act as an advisor to current and former students who are interested in pursuing a legal education. That individual can help you with researching and identifying law schools to which you may want to apply. If you are still attending undergraduate school, your prelaw advisor can be helpful in selecting courses that can help you achieve your goal.
Core Skills and Values:
* Analytic / Problem Solving Skills
* Critical Reading
* Writing Skills
* Oral Communication / Listening Abilities
* General Research Skills
* Task Organization / Management Skills
* Public Service and Promotion of Justice

There are important skills and values, and significant bodies of knowledge that you can acquire prior to law school and that will provide a sound foundation for a legal education. These include analytic and problem-solving skills , critical reading abilities, writing skills, oral communication and listening abilities, general research skills, task organization and management skills, and the values of serving faithfully the interests of others while also promoting justice. If you wish to prepare adequately for a legal education, and for a career in law or for other professional service that involves the use of lawyering skills, you should seek educational, extra-curricular and life experiences that will assist you in developing those attributes. Some brief comments about each of the listed skills and values follow.

Analytic / Problem Solving Skills
You should seek courses and other experiences that will engage you in critical thinking about important issues, challenge your beliefs and improve your tolerance for uncertainty. Your legal education will demand that you structure and evaluate arguments for and against propositions that are susceptible to reasoned debate. Good legal education will teach you to "think like a lawyer", but the analytic and problem solving skills required of lawyers are not fundamentally different from those employed by other professionals. Your law school experience will develop and refine those crucial skills, but you must enter law school with a reasonably well developed set of analytic and problem solving abilities.

Critical Reading Abilities
Preparation for legal education should include substantial experience at close reading and critical analysis of complex textual material, for much of what you will do as a law student and lawyer involves careful reading and comprehension of judicial opinions, statues, documents, and other written materials. As with the other skills discussed in this Statement, you can develop your critical reading ability in a wide range of experiences, including the close reading of complex material in literature, political or economic theory, philosophy, or history. The particular nature of the materials examined is not crucial; what is important is that law school should not be the first time that you are rigorously engaged in the enterprise of carefully reading and understanding, and critically analyzing, complex written material of substantial length.

Writing Skills
As you seek to prepare for a legal education, you should develop a high degree of skill at written communication. Language is the most important tool of a lawyer, and lawyers must learn to express themselves clearly and concisely.

Legal education will provide you with good training in writing, and particularly in the specific techniques and forms of written expression that are common in the law. Fundamental writing skills, however, must be acquired and refined before you enter law school. You should seek as many experiences as possible that will require rigorous and analytical writing, including preparing original pieces of substantial length and revising written work in response to constructive criticism.

Oral Communication and Listening Abilities
The ability to speak clearly and persuasively is another skill that is essential to your success in law school and the practice of law. You must also have excellent listening skills if you are to understand your clients and others with whom you will interact daily. As with writing skills, legal education provides excellent opportunities for refining oral communication skills, and particularly for practicing the forms and techniques of oral expression that are most common in the practice of law. Before coming to law school, however, you should seek to develop your basic speaking and listening skills, such as by engaging in debate, making formal presentations in class, or speaking before groups in school, the community, or the workplace.

General Research Skills
Although there are many research sources and techniques that are specific to the law, you do not have to have developed any familiarity with these specific skills or materials before entering law school. However, it would be to your advantage to come to law school having had the experience of undertaking a project that requires significant library research and the analysis of large amounts of information obtained from that research. The ability to use a personal computer is also necessary for law students, both for word processing and for computerized legal research.

Task Organization and Management Skills
To study and practice law, you are going to need to be able to organize large amounts of information, identify objectives, and create a structure for applying that information in an efficient way in order to achieve desired results. Many law school courses, for example, are graded primarily on the basis of one examination at the end of the course, and many projects in the practice of law require the compilation of large amounts of information from a wide variety of sources. You are going to need to be able to prepare and assimilate large amounts of information in an effective and efficient manner. Some of the requisite experience can be obtained through undertaking school projects that require substantial research and writing, or through the preparation of major reports for an employer, a school, or a civic organization.

The Values of Serving Others and Promoting Justice
Each member of the legal profession should be dedicated both to the objectives of serving others honestly, competently, and responsibly, and to the goals of improving fairness and the quality of justice in the legal system. If you are thinking of entering the legal profession, you should seek some significant experience, before coming to law school, in which you may devote substantial effort toward assisting others. Participation in public service projects or similar efforts at achieving objectives established for common purposes can be particularly helpful.

General Knowledge
In addition to the fundamental skills and values listed above, there are some basic areas of knowledge that are helpful to a legal education and to the development of a competent lawyer. Some of the types of knowledge that would maximize your ability to benefit from a legal education include:

* A broad understanding of history, including the various factors (social, political, economic, and cultural) that have influenced the development of our society in the United States.
* A fundamental understanding of political thought and of the contemporary American political system.
* Some basic mathematical and financial skills, such as an understanding of basic pre-calculus mathematics and an ability to analyze financial data.
* A basic understanding of human behavior and social interaction.
* An understanding of diverse cultures within and beyond the United States, of international institutions and issues, of world events, and of the increasing interdependence of the nations and communities within our world.

Conclusion
The skills, values and knowledge discussed in this Statement may be acquired in a wide variety of ways. You may take undergraduate, graduate, or even high school courses that can assist you in acquiring much of this information. You may also gain much of this background through self-learning by reading, in the workplace, or through various other life experiences. Moreover, it is not essential that you come to law school having fully developed all of the skills, values and knowledge suggested in this Statement. Some of that foundation can be acquired during the initial years of law school. However, if you begin law school having already acquired many of the skills, values and knowledge listed in this Statement, you will have a significant advantage and will be well prepared to benefit fully from a challenging legal education.

Law School

Admission Requirements

LSAT | Undergraduate Courses | GPA |
Personal Statement | Curriculum


The competition to get into law school is fierce—there are more applicants than seats. Doing well on your undergraduate coursework, standardized tests, and personal statements will help you get accepted into law school.

LSAT
An important determining factor in getting into law school is the Law School Admissions Test (LSAT). Be sure to take your initial LSAT in your junior year to ensure that you have time to retake the test. Consider taking as many practice tests as possible.

Undergraduate Courses
Law schools look for specific courses on your transcript (political science, philosophy, sociology, and history); however, it's just as important to be a well-rounded individual.

Law schools also look for applicants with quantitative courses such as economics, business, math, and finance. Once you’re out of school, you will be dealing with the business world daily and you will need to understand it.

GPA
Carefully consider the courses you take at the undergraduate level. While your LSAT score is critical, a commendable GPA and course load are important. An admissions board is more likely to look favorably on an applicant that has double majored in biology and philosophy with a GPA of 3.25 than someone who majored in political science with the same GPA.

Personal Statement
Let the admissions committee know who you are through your personal statement. Don’t just tell them why you want to be a lawyer or simply rehash your resume. Tell them your significant life accomplishments and what sets you apart from the other applicants.

This will be the admissions committee first true impression of you, so make it count. Once you’ve written your statement, have several people review it. Choose tough reviewers who will truly critique your essay.

Law School Curriculum

First Year: During this time, students take all the required (core) courses. These courses include civil procedure, contracts, constitutional law, criminal law, legal writing, professional responsibility/ethics, property law, and torts.

Second and Third Year: This time is occupied mostly with electives and any remaining core courses. Specialized courses begin now. Students gain hands-on experience by working in law firms, participating in mock court sessions and practice trials, researching and writing for the school's law journal, and/or participating in law clinics.

Edited by tomas.hokenberi, 25 November 2010 - 08:57.

[Tribun pučki]

Verovao ti meni ili ne - uopšte se ne bih bunio.

Suština stvaranja dobrog pravnika jeste razvijanje analitičkih veština i logike kod istog, uz dobre oratorske i literarne sposobnosti. Štaviše, da mene neko pita, ja bih prvo terao pravnike da završe 3 godine ekonomije, pa onda 3-4 godine prava, jer su prava samo nadgradnja nad društvenim odnosima tj. skup pravila u okviru kojih se isti odvijaju. Onaj ko ne poznaje pravila funkcionisanja društvene baze (koja nisu nužno pravne norme, tipičan primer su tzv. zakoni tržišta u ekonomiji ili pravila struke u tehničkim oblastima) nikada neće umeti ni da pravilno protumači i primeni pravne propise u okviru društvene nadgradnje. I za to je, složiću se, potreban visok nivo teorijske potkovanosti.

Međutim, ono što je prisutno kod nas jeste činjenica da jedino što dobiješ jeste suva teorijska potkovanost iliti učenje napamet gomile informacija (klasičan štreberaj), dok se u Americi itekako obraća pažnja na razvijanje analitičkih sposobnosti i pravne tehnike tj. veštine pisanja pravnih akata i govorničkih sposobnosti (što je jedino što trajno ostaje u mozgu svršenog studenta). Bez razvijenih analitičkih sposobnosti i logičkog aparata ne možeš razumeti svrhu konkretnog propisa, što je veoma bitno zbog ostvarenja niza drugih načela na kojima bazira čitav pravni sistem (zakonitosti, pravičnosti, pravne sigurnosti, ekonomičnosti, zaštite interesa slabije strane itd.) pored ostvarenja konkretnog pravila koje primenjuješ; dok bez pravne tehnike sve to što si učio možeš da okačiš mački o rep, jer nisi sposoban da ga primeniš u praksi.

Propisi su društvena kategorija koja je najpodložnija čestim promenama, te bombardovanje studenata informacijama o konkretnom zakonskom rešenju u datom trenutku nije celishodno, budući da sutradan taj propis možda neće važiti. Poenta je u tome, kako je jedna moja divna profesorka (častan izuzetak) rekla - "Nije moje da vas teram da učite zakone napamet, moje je da vas naučim u kom zakonu šta treba da tražite, da ga pravilno protumačite i primenite".

E sad, što se tiče razlike između USA i srpskog obrazovnog sistema - oni studiraju 4+3 a mi 4+1. S tim da oni 4 godine studiraju filozofiju, engleski, politikologiju, ekonomiju ili tome slično pa 3 godine prava sa specijalizacijom (koju mi nemamo, a što znači da ako si prethodno završio npr. bussines administration ti ćeš verovatno biti corporate lawyer) i stiču zvanje doktora prava (JD), a kod nas svih 5 godina studiraš prava opšteg usmerenja (dakle sve) i stičeš zvanje mastera prava (LLM). Pretpostavka je da je nas gimnazija ili odgovarajuća srednja stručna škola (ekonomska ili pravno-birotehnička) pripremila za studiranje (što uglavnom jeste), dok je kod njih pretpostavka da te high school nije pripremila nizašta (jer i nije), pa svakako moraš nešto upisati (bilo vocational/associate degree da bi uopšte mogao da radiš, ili bachelor pa kasnije eventualno master ili doctor). Dakle, korenita razlika je u sistemu obrazovanja, stara dobra razlika koja postoji i u pravnim sistemima i u mnogim drugim oblastima društvenog života - evropsko-kontinentalna i anglo-američka.

P.S. Najzanimljiviji mi je bio primarni način polaganja ispita na US Law schools -> pisanje eseja na konkretnu temu odn. zadatak tj. praktično rešavanje datog slučaja, preko koga profesor proverava nivo znanja studenta. Em se na taj način smanjuje arbitrernost profesora pri ocenjivanju (obaška mogućnost manipulacije i korupcije, jer postoji pisani trag), em se od studenta očekuje da pokaže visok nivo pismenosti u izražavanju i sposobnosti da teorijsko znanje primeni na praktičnom slučaju, em se ne očekuje da deklamuješ napamet stranicu po stranicu iz knjige. A ovo poslednje je upravo ono što se od nas ovde traži, bez ijednog traga prethodna dva uslova koja su potrebna da bi u Americi položio ispit.

Najjednostavnije rečeno - njihov obrazovni sistem od pravnika stvara analitičare i istraživače koji kroz praksu pronalaze optimalna rešenja za konkretan problem, pa ga tek onda teorijski uopštavaju; a naš zatupljene konzervativne dogmatike koji misle da je ta teorija koju su naučili vrhunac ljudskog dometa i gunđaju kad se promeni propis, jer ga ponovo trebaju proučavati.

Secondly, American legal education is far more participatory than the traditional lecture method used in civil law education. Rather than relying on scholarly treatises, American law schools use the "case method" -- studying casebooks containing actual court decisions to derive legal rules. Moreover, professors have traditionally used the "Socratic" method of teaching in which the professor asks a series of questions thereby guiding the student toward the correct responses. All students are expected to read the assignments and take part in discussions. Many professors consider class participation to be an integral component of the final class grade.

A word about assigned readings. The necessity of reading English quickly and with good comprehension cannot be over-stressed in order to succeed in graduate study in the United States. Typical reading assignments may range between fifteen and sixty pages per class. I have had international friends tell me that the most difficult part of their LL.M. experience was trying to complete all the reading assignments.

American law school classes are taught either as lecture courses, or smaller seminar courses. Lecture courses may range in size from approximately fifteen people for a specialized course such as Admiralty or Conflict of Laws to perhaps sixty or more for a class such as Secured Transactions or Corporations. Lecture courses, particularly those which have a large number of J.D. students, generally are taught using the Socratic method and have a single examination at the end of the course which determines the grade. The larger the course, the more likely it is that it will be taught by a full-time faculty member, rather than by a practicing lawyer who teaches as an adjunct professor.

Seminar courses, on the other hand, have fewer students, and treat a specialized topic in greater depth, consequently the reading assignments may be somewhat longer and students are expected to participate more often. Seminars are graded either on the basis of final exams or through the preparation and presentation of original research papers, as well as classroom participation. Some professors will also agree to sponsor directed research projects.

Research and writing is an essential component of graduate legal education in the United States. In addition to shorter papers which are written for seminars, most law schools require some sort of graduate thesis of substantial length. This is the single most time-consuming part of the LL.M. and it is wise to have a topic in mind and work consistently on the paper throughout the semester or semesters in which it is assigned. Students prepare their graduate thesis for a supervising professor who is available to offer advice. Because the graduate thesis is so central to the LL.M. program, students with a particular research interest would do well to determine if the school has the resources available to facilitate their research. There is perhaps nothing more frustrating than conducting research and discovering the library has either very little material on the subject, or what it has is far out of date. Thankfully, the Internet has simplified international legal research to a significant degree, however, a well-stocked law library with knowledgeable staff makes your job easier. Many LL.M. students revise their thesis and submit them for publication to American law journals.

Final examinations are a necessary evil. In law schools, examinations are generally presented as essay questions, rather than multiple choice tests. A typical law school exam consists of three one-hour questions, each of which sets out a fact pattern and asks specific questions that are to be addressed in an essay. These exams are comprehensive and generally test all the areas covered in the lectures. Some professors permit the students to bring written materials into the examination room and others require the exams to be "closed book", that is, taken without the benefit of any reference materials. The professors will make their policies clear, and failure to abide by the examination rules is considered a violation of the school's honor code -- a very serious infraction. Examinations are timed, and while some schools permit additional time for international students whose native language is not English, others do not. Again, the ability to read and write legal English is key to success in American law schools. For representative examples of American law school examinations, take a look at the International Business Transactions exams posted by Professor Peter Winship of the S.M.U. Law School.

I treći put, nebo i zemlja. Mada možda je dupe i glava bolje poređenje, kad malo razmislim (a raspored pozicija je očigledan).

Edited by Tribun_populi, 25 November 2010 - 17:59.

[tomas.hokenberi]

Verovao ti meni ili ne - uopšte se ne bih bunio.

Suština stvaranja dobrog pravnika jeste razvijanje analitičkih veština i logike kod istog, uz dobre oratorske i literarne sposobnosti. Štaviše, da mene neko pita, ja bih prvo terao pravnike da završe 3 godine ekonomije, pa onda 3-4 godine prava, jer su prava samo nadgradnja nad društvenim odnosima tj. skup pravila u okviru kojih se isti odvijaju. Onaj ko ne poznaje pravila funkcionisanja društvene baze (koja nisu nužno pravne norme, tipičan primer su tzv. zakoni tržišta u ekonomiji ili pravila struke u tehničkim oblastima) nikada neće umeti ni da pravilno protumači i primeni pravne propise u okviru društvene nadgradnje. I za to je, složiću se, potreban visok nivo teorijske potkovanosti.

Međutim, ono što je prisutno kod nas jeste činjenica da jedino što dobiješ jeste suva teorijska potkovanost iliti učenje napamet gomile informacija (klasičan štreberaj), dok se u Americi itekako obraća pažnja na razvijanje analitičkih sposobnosti i pravne tehnike tj. veštine pisanja pravnih akata i govorničkih sposobnosti (što je jedino što trajno ostaje u mozgu svršenog studenta). Bez razvijenih analitičkih sposobnosti i logičkog aparata ne možeš razumeti svrhu konkretnog propisa, što je veoma bitno zbog ostvarenja niza drugih načela na kojima bazira čitav pravni sistem (zakonitosti, pravičnosti, pravne sigurnosti, ekonomičnosti, zaštite interesa slabije strane itd.) pored ostvarenja konkretnog pravila koje primenjuješ; dok bez pravne tehnike sve to što si učio možeš da okačiš mački o rep, jer nisi sposoban da ga primeniš u praksi.

Propisi su društvena kategorija koja je najpodložnija čestim promenama, te bombardovanje studenata informacijama o konkretnom zakonskom rešenju u datom trenutku nije celishodno, budući da sutradan taj propis možda neće važiti. Poenta je u tome, kako je jedna moja divna profesorka (častan izuzetak) rekla - "Nije moje da vas teram da učite zakone napamet, moje je da vas naučim u kom zakonu šta treba da tražite, da ga pravilno protumačite i primenite".

E sad, što se tiče razlike između USA i srpskog obrazovnog sistema - oni studiraju 4+3 a mi 4+1. S tim da oni 4 godine studiraju filozofiju, engleski, politikologiju, ekonomiju ili tome slično pa 3 godine prava sa specijalizacijom (koju mi nemamo, a što znači da ako si prethodno završio npr. bussines administration ti ćeš verovatno biti corporate lawyer) i stiču zvanje doktora prava (JD), a kod nas svih 5 godina studiraš prava opšteg usmerenja (dakle sve) i stičeš zvanje mastera prava (LLM). Pretpostavka je da je nas gimnazija ili odgovarajuća srednja stručna škola (ekonomska ili pravno-birotehnička) pripremila za studiranje (što uglavnom jeste), dok je kod njih pretpostavka da te high school nije pripremila nizašta (jer i nije), pa svakako moraš nešto upisati (bilo vocational/associate degree da bi uopšte mogao da radiš, ili bachelor pa kasnije eventualno master ili doctor). Dakle, korenita razlika je u sistemu obrazovanja, stara dobra razlika koja postoji i u pravnim sistemima i u mnogim drugim oblastima društvenog života - evropsko-kontinentalna i anglo-američka.

P.S. Najzanimljiviji mi je bio primarni način polaganja ispita na US Law schools -> pisanje eseja na konkretnu temu odn. zadatak tj. praktično rešavanje datog slučaja, preko koga profesor proverava nivo znanja studenta. Em se na taj način smanjuje arbitrernost profesora pri ocenjivanju (obaška mogućnost manipulacije i korupcije, jer postoji pisani trag), em se od studenta očekuje da pokaže visok nivo pismenosti u izražavanju i sposobnosti da teorijsko znanje primeni na praktičnom slučaju, em se ne očekuje da deklamuješ napamet stranicu po stranicu iz knjige. A ovo poslednje je upravo ono što se od nas ovde traži, bez ijednog traga prethodna dva uslova koja su potrebna da bi u Americi položio ispit.

Najjednostavnije rečeno - njihov obrazovni sistem od pravnika stvara analitičare i istraživače koji kroz praksu pronalaze optimalna rešenja za konkretan problem, pa ga tek onda teorijski uopštavaju; a naš zatupljene konzervativne dogmatike koji misle da je ta teorija koju su naučili vrhunac ljudskog dometa i gunđaju kad se promeni propis, jer ga ponovo trebaju proučavati.



I treći put, nebo i zemlja. Mada možda je dupe i glava bolje poređenje, kad malo razmislim (a raspored pozicija je očigledan).

Sa ovim se naravno, slazem. Sto se tice "streberaja" vs "analitickih sposobnosti" i tu nema sta da se raspravlja.

Ti kao (buduci) pravnik posmatras struku iz pozicije pravnika i najbolje znas sta ti smeta (odnosno je smetalo) na studijama. Ja studiranje generalno najbolje mogu da posmatram sa pozicije nekog ko je diplomirao (i magistrirao) elektrotehniku - i poredim svoje studije sa primedbama studenata odgovarajucih oblasti. I tu imam mali problem sa banalizacijom studija. Na mnogim informatickim i tehnickim fakultetima se upravo uvode predmeti koji su upravo "streberaj" i koji daju iskljucivo proceduralna znanja (a to se lazno naziva prakticnim znanjima) na racun predmeta koji daju bazicna i analiticka znanja.

U kontaktima sa mladjim diplomcima i studentima sam se prilicno razocarao, posto sam primetio da je upravo kvalitet analitickih (i sintetickih) sposobnosti prosecnog diplomca opao. Sta se desava? Dolaze npr. u informatici diplomci koji "znaju" odredjene jezike ili alate ali su istovremeno izuzetno losi programeri. Oni su naucili procedure koriscenja alata, sintaksu programskog jezika, ali nisu naucili da resavaju probleme. Ranije su dolazili diplomci koji cesto nisu poznavali odredjene programske jezike ili alate ali su razvili sposobnost resavanja problema, a jezici i alati se brzo uce. Imam utisak da su neki zele da bukvalno svedu nivo akademskih studija na nivo strukovnih, odnosno bivsih visih skola, a da samo diplome izdaju za "VII stepen".

Btw. "Juris Doctor" (JD) nije isto sto doktor nauka (PHd) - to je titula tipa "Medical Doctor" (MD), a "Juris Doctor" moze da postane PHd, ako nastavi dalje studije. Kad vec pomenuh MD-jeve, i medicinari primenjuju slican nacin upisa kao pravnici u SAD. Daklem prvo zavrsis biologiju, hemiju ili fiziku, a zatim nastavljas studije medicine.

Btw. citao sam pre 10-ak meseci statistike upisa na pravo u SAD. Najgori uspeh su na upisu ostvarili oni koji su studirali "pre-law" specijalizovane pripremne studije, a najbolji ekonomisti ("pravi ekonomisti" koji se bave makroekonomijom itd, ne "menadzeri" i slicni) i matematicari.

[Tribun pučki]

Imam utisak da su neki zele da bukvalno svedu nivo akademskih studija na nivo strukovnih, odnosno bivsih visih skola, a da samo diplome izdaju za "VII stepen".

U osnovi je to i poenta bachelora u evropskom obrazovnom prostoru, dok bi se kvalitetnija teorijska nadgradnja dobijala kroz dvogodišnji master, sa nekom vrstom usmerenja na odr. oblast (lupiću - npr. na projektovanje poslovnih informacionih sistema). I grešiš u jednom, tek je master VII stepen, bachelor je VI. (dipl.ing.el. po starom = master el. po novom, što se zakona tiče).

Btw. "Juris Doctor" (JD) nije isto sto doktor nauka (PHd) - to je titula tipa "Medical Doctor" (MD), a "Juris Doctor" moze da postane PHd, ako nastavi dalje studije.

Znam, spomenuo sam to jer mi je bilo interesantno, to je arhaizam koji se je ranije primenjivao i u Evropi - pored lekara i pravnici su nosili zvanje doktora, ali doktora struke.

Btw. citao sam pre 10-ak meseci statistike upisa na pravo u SAD. Najgori uspeh su na upisu ostvarili oni koji su studirali "pre-law" specijalizovane pripremne studije, a najbolji ekonomisti ("pravi ekonomisti" koji se bave makroekonomijom itd, ne "menadzeri" i slicni) i matematicari.

Meni potpuno logično. Za ekonomiju sam već rekao šta mislim, a što se matematike tiče -> pravo upravo zbog logike kao osnovnog metoda rada nazivaju "društvenom matematikom".

Btw. menadžment se više kod nas ne ubraja u ekonomiju. To je posebno polje u okviru društveno-humanističkih nauka.

[tomas.hokenberi]

U osnovi je to i poenta bachelora u evropskom obrazovnom prostoru, dok bi se kvalitetnija teorijska nadgradnja dobijala kroz dvogodišnji master, sa nekom vrstom usmerenja na odr. oblast (lupiću - npr. na projektovanje poslovnih informacionih sistema). I grešiš u jednom, tek je master VII stepen, bachelor je VI. (dipl.ing.el. po starom = master el. po novom, što se zakona tiče).

Zar nije doneta odluka, da 3+2 model nece biti vise u upotrebi vec iskljucivo 4+1.

Znam, spomenuo sam to jer mi je bilo interesantno, to je arhaizam koji se je ranije primenjivao i u Evropi - pored lekara i pravnici su nosili zvanje doktora, ali doktora struke.

Mislim da se u Italiji jos uvek koristi, barem kolokvijalno, "dotore" za pravnike.

Meni potpuno logično. Za ekonomiju sam već rekao šta mislim, a što se matematike tiče -> pravo upravo zbog logike kao osnovnog metoda rada nazivaju "društvenom matematikom".

Btw. menadžment se više kod nas ne ubraja u ekonomiju. To je posebno polje u okviru društveno-humanističkih nauka.

Znam da se ne ubraja, medjutim ljudi cesto upisuju ekonomiju, a zapravo zele da studiraju menadzment. Naglasio sam razliku posto kod nas vecina izjednacava ekonomiju sa menadzmentom ili accountingom.

[Tribun pučki]

Zar nije doneta odluka, da 3+2 model nece biti vise u upotrebi vec iskljucivo 4+1.

Iskreno, ovo prvi put čujem. Znam da su pravni fakulteti u Srbiji na nekom svom internom savetovanju doneli takvu odluku, da studijske programe koncipiraju po modelu 4+1 kao (po njihovom stanovištu) najadekvatnijem za tu naučnu granu. Za ostale stvarno ne znam, a što se zakona tiče u njemu ništa nije menjano (dakle ili 3+2 ili 4+1).

Međutim, ono što se krije iza 4+1 kod pravnih fakulteta jeste najobičnija intencija da se ne promeni ništa, što se na kraju i ispostavilo kroz nove studijske programe (delimično okraćeno gradivo ili podeljeni predmeti, plus neki sa mojih osnovnih studija prebačeni na master). To nije ono šta je zakonodavac imao na umu kroz reformu...

[tomas.hokenberi]

Iskreno, ovo prvi put čujem. Znam da su pravni fakulteti u Srbiji na nekom svom internom savetovanju doneli takvu odluku, da studijske programe koncipiraju po modelu 4+1 kao (po njihovom stanovištu) najadekvatnijem za tu naučnu granu. Za ostale stvarno ne znam, a što se zakona tiče u njemu ništa nije menjano (dakle ili 3+2 ili 4+1).

Međutim, ono što se krije iza 4+1 kod pravnih fakulteta jeste najobičnija intencija da se ne promeni ništa, što se na kraju i ispostavilo kroz nove studijske programe (delimično okraćeno gradivo ili podeljeni predmeti, plus neki sa mojih osnovnih studija prebačeni na master). To nije ono šta je zakonodavac imao na umu kroz reformu...

Skoro 90% sam siguran da sam skoro procitao clanak u kome je napisano da akademske studije na fakultetima (svim ne samo pravnim) vise nece moci da budu trogodisnje (odnosno 3+2 sa masterom) vec iskljucivo cetvorogodisnje (4+1). Trogodisnje studije ce postojati iskljucivo na "visokim skolama strukovnih studija". Kada budem imao vremena potrazicu izvor te (dez)informacije.

Edited by tomas.hokenberi, 28 November 2010 - 22:43.

[Tribun pučki]

Tadić: Nema leka za “odliv mozgova“
28. novembar 2010. | 12:10 | Izvor: B92, Beta

Beograd -- Predsednik Srbije Boris Tadić kaže da država nema para i da zbog toga ne može da spreči migraciju visokoobrazovanih ljudi iz naše zemlje u inostranstvo.

"Država nema dobar merni instrument, te joj najveći talenti pobegnu u inostranstvo zbog toga što tamo neko ima veće mogućnosti da im da bolje uslove", rekao je Tadić i naveo da su migracije pretpostavka napretka.

Tadić je kazao da je privreda u veoma teškom položaju i da zbog toga, po njegovim rečima, država "nema dovoljno novca da investira u budućnost, u nauku, u obrazovanje u onom smislu da se očekuju brzi efekti".

Živimo kao u bajkama

Predsednik Boris Tadić je kazao i da je jedan od najvećih problema koji sprečavaju rast zemlje nespremnost ljudi da se kreću. "Nama je imanentna sklonost da ostanemo na istom mestu. Da izgradimo kuću od što čvršćeg materijala u kojoj će živeti čitava porodica - ne samo tata, već ako je moguće i deda i pradeda, i unuk i njegovi naslednici... Jer može da dođe vuk i dune, i oduva nam kuću. Mi živimo kao u bajkama“, naveo je on.

"Ja nemam odgovornost kada je u pitanju budžetska politika, ali imam političku odgovornost... Ali, smatram da ova vlada ne treba da bude zapamćena samo po tome što je gradila puteve, što je samo išla u formalnom smislu prema evropskim integracijama, već što je ulagala i u nauku", rekao je Tadić.

Govoreći o tome zašto država ne zapošljava više mladih ljudi u svojoj upravi, predsednik Boris Tadić je naveo da su plate u državnoj administraciji isuviše male što obeshrabruje najbolje studente.

Tadić je na sednici Studentske konferencije univerziteta Srbije rekao da je on uključio mnogo mladih ljudi u rad svog kabineta, ali je naveo da "nije siguran da li je pogrešio ili ne što im je dao šansu".

"Imao sam čoveka koji je imao 32 godine kada je postao ministar inostranih poslova. Moj generalni sekretar isto toliko, šef kabineta isto toliko. To su ljudi koji su neposredno pre toga završili fakultet. Ni dan danas ne znam da li sam pogrešio ili nisam pogrešio", zapitao se Tadić.

Visokoobrazovanih samo 6,5 odsto

Ministar prosvete Žarko Obradović kaže da je nezadovoljan time što je samo 6,5 odsto stanovništa Srbije visoko obrazovano i dodaje da je "povećanje broja visokoobrazovanih ljudi u Srbiji je apsolutni državni prioritet“.

On je pozvao predsednika Srbije Borisa Tadića da, na isti način na koji je u prethodne dve godine pružao podršku visokom obrazovanju, pomogne da ljudi u Srbiji shvate koliko je važno obrazovanje.

Rektor Beogradskog univerziteta Branko Kovačević naglašava da bi najmanje 40 odsto stanovnika Srbije moralo imati diplomu fakulteta.

"Više stotina hiljada mladih je napustilo Srbiju u njenoj novijoj istoriji i znanje stečeno ovde sprovodi u praksi u inostranstvu. Njihovo obrazovanje je Srbiju koštalo 12 milijardi evra, i odliv mozgova mora biti zaustavljen", rekao je Kovačević, poručivši da su se otvaranjem srpskog tržišta konačno stvorili uslovi za ostanak mladih u zemlji.

http://forum.b92.net...m...143&t=63704

Još uvek se nisu dosetili da su dve ključne stvari koje ovo sprečavaju zapošljavanje mladih po okončanju studija i rešavanje njihovog stambenog pitanja. Dakle, umesto upisivanja bog-zna-koliko ljudi na fakultete godišnje, neka upišu onoliko za koliko će biti posla; a umesto socijalnih stanova koje prodaju po 1.250 € za m2 neka grade stanove koje će ljudi rentati po pristojnoj ceni, kao što se svuda na zapadu radi, a ne da mladi žive do trideset i neke s roditeljima.

Onda možemo da razgovaramo.

[Bokan]

Socijalni stanovi bez problema mogu da se grade za 750€ ali tu mnogi nemaju interes odnosno svoj deo kolača. A kod nas će se još mnogo godina mesiti kolači mnogo veći od našeg stvarnog apetita.

[DJ_Vasa]

Izgleda da Tadić i njegov ministar žive u različitim državama. Dok jedan priča kako nema ništa od zadržavanja mladih i obrazovanih ljudi i da im država ne može pomoći, drugi ponavlja kao papagaj da je povećanje broja obrazovanih prioritet, ali ne i šta će se onda desiti. Ako se poveća broj visokoobrazovanih koji sa diplomom mogu samo da beru maline, sade kupus ili odmah unovče diplomu negde u belom svetu - nema vajde. Jedna zemlja dobije berača kupusa sa diplomom, druga besplatno dobije (koliko-toliko) kvalifikovanog stručnjaka.

Još uvek se nisu dosetili da su dve ključne stvari koje ovo sprečavaju zapošljavanje mladih po okončanju studija i rešavanje njihovog stambenog pitanja. Dakle, umesto upisivanja bog-zna-koliko ljudi na fakultete godišnje, neka upišu onoliko za koliko će biti posla; a umesto socijalnih stanova koje prodaju po 1.250 € za m2 neka grade stanove koje će ljudi rentati po pristojnoj ceni, kao što se svuda na zapadu radi, a ne da mladi žive do trideset i neke s roditeljima.

Onda možemo da razgovaramo.

Slažem se oko toga šta jeste potrebno nekom budućem diplomcu, ali ne i oko načina. Da bi se stvorili takvi uslovi, nekoliko stanova uz povoljan kredit ili jeftinu stanarinu ne rešava problem. Ovi uslovi su potrebni u svakom delu zemljine kugle, ali se ne mogu stvoriti zidanjem, već mnogo dužim radom, tj. na stvaranju normalne države. Ukoliko država ima normalne zakone, sudstvo, intelektualnu bazu, mogućnosti da privuče investicije, povoljan saobraćajni položaj, infrastrukturu i još mnogo toga, onda se može govoriti o nekakvoj ozbiljnoj strategiji. Nekoliko zgrada sa jeftinim stanovima u samo nekoliko gradova ne rešava ništa.

[Tribun pučki]

Socijalni stanovi bez problema mogu da se grade za 750€ ali tu mnogi nemaju interes odnosno svoj deo kolača. A kod nas će se još mnogo godina mesiti kolači mnogo veći od našeg stvarnog apetita.

Nisam mislio na socijalne stanove koje će neko kupovati trajno u svojinu, već na stanove kojim bi gazdovala opština a ljudi ih rentali za 100€ mesečno. Što bi kupovao stan i trošio 30% plate na ratu (i tako 30 godina) ako ne moraš, a i ako znaš da će i tvoja deca sutradan moći to isto da rade.

Da bi se stvorili takvi uslovi, nekoliko stanova uz povoljan kredit ili jeftinu stanarinu ne rešava problem.

Nije to ni poenta. Država u kojoj svršeni diplomac po okončanju studija lako nađe posao i bude plaćen dovoljno da izrenta opštinski stan i pristojno živi već jeste funkcionalna i normalna država.

Edited by Tribun_populi, 30 November 2010 - 00:09.