Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Multipleks skleroza - Chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
914 replies to this topic

#751 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 21 October 2012 - 13:53

Kako se utvrdjuje da li neko ima MS?
Koji su najcesci simptomi?


Kao potpuni laik, ali i vlasnik pomenute dijagnoze:
Utvrđivanje MS dijagnoze, najčešće nije kratkotrajno i jednostavno. Između mnogih analiza koje se sprovode, nekako mi se čini da se najveći značaj pridaje analizi likvora i magnetnoj rezonanci. Međutim, ništa od ovoga nije 100% sigurno i zato, često, prođu godine i godine do definitivnog uspostavljanja dijagnoze, naročito kada je reč o atipičnim manifestacijama ovog oboljenja. Nije redak slučaj da se ova dijagnoza meša sa mnogim drugim sličnim dijagnozama: lajmska bolest, diskus h... Smatra se da je na svetskom nivou najmanje 5-10% dijagnoza MS pogrešno postavljeno.

Simptomi mogu biti brojni i različitog intenziteta: problemi sa vidom, govorom, hodom, inkontinencija, kognitivni problemi, spazam, tremor... i još hiljade drugih. Sve to može da ukazuje na MS, ali i ne mora.

U svakom slučaju, reč je o ozbiljnoj dijagnozi i jedino relevantan za priču o tome je LEKAR.

#752 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:32

Dr Hubbard u članku kaže “Look, if not for my son I’d be on the other side of this” (on je neurolog)
od početka priče o CCSVI to je jedina konstanta... kad uspijemo promijeniti ili stav ili područje koje se nama bavi, tada ćemo uspjeti...
(članak u NYT)

http://www.nytimes.c...agewanted=all#h

#753 Eddard

Eddard
  • Members
  • 4,278 posts

Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:16

New CCSVI Studies Negative, Procedure Not Without Risk

LYON, France — A new study looking at the association between the presence of chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI) and multiple sclerosis (MS) shows the incidence of CCSVI was low and did not differ among groups of patients with MS, other neurologic diseases, or healthy controls.
The researchers, representing centers across Italy, where the theory of CCSVI was first developed, say that their findings should end once and for all the controversy about whether venous insufficiency has any role in the MS disease process, concluded lead author Giancarlo Comi, MD, director of the Department of Neurology and Institute of Experimental Neurology at the Scientific Institute and University Vita-Salute San Raffaele in Milan, Italy.
"I think that I do really hope that this is the last time I have to talk about this topic," Dr. Comi concluded.
Another observational study suggests that the use of venoplasty to address CCSVI is not without risk, with serious adverse events occurring in about 3% of patients who elected to be treated.
The papers were presented at the 28th Congress of the European Committee for Treatment and Research in Multiple Sclerosis (ECTRIMS).
The COSMO Study
Paolo Zamboni, MD, director of the Vascular Diseases Center at the University of Ferrara, Italy, first described this potential relationship, that patients with MS had more abnormalities in the internal jugular and other veins than those without MS. He reasoned that addressing these lesions with venoplasty might improve symptoms in MS.
Since he published his initial results in 2009, however, the CCSVI theory has become a hot button topic in this field. Observational studies have had wildly divergent results, leading to controversy about what constitutes CCSVI and how to detect it on imaging. In the meantime, many patients have paid out of their own pockets to be assessed and undergo venoplasty in hopes of improving their symptoms, often traveling to other countries and not receiving much in the way of follow-up care.
At the meeting here, several new studies were presented with the aim of investigating the correlation between the presence of CCSVI and MS, established by using the criteria proposed by Dr. Zamboni.
The COSMO trial was a case-control observational study. Fundamental to the approach, said Dr. Comi, was the use of local blinded evaluation as well as blinded central evaluation of scans.
The scans were assessed by the peripheral and central reader, and if the diagnosis (presence or absence of CCSVI) matched, that diagnosis was considered final. If there was disagreement, the exam was sent to the other 2 central sonologists. The agreement of 2 of the 3 central sonologists was considered final.
"The criteria we used were exactly those described by Zamboni," Dr. Comi noted, calling for 2 of 5 possible criteria to be present for a diagnosis of CCSVI. "All the sonologists, in order to be accepted for the study, had to perform an applicant training and a final exam, again to prevent the objection that…only some few are able to pick up this condition."
Three groups were included: healthy controls; patients with other neurologic diseases; and patients with various courses of MS, including clinically isolated syndrome, relapsing-remitting MS, and primary progressive and secondary progressive MS, to see whether, in the case of a positive association, that it might be related to the phase of disease, he noted.
Thirty-five centers across Italy participated, and the study was supported by the Italian Association of Multiple Sclerosis.
Some patients were excluded for protocol violations or because image quality was not acceptable, leaving 1767 patients or healthy participants.
The prevalence of CCSVI seen in patients with MS, healthy controls, and patients with other neurologic disorders was low and did different among the groups in this study, Dr. Comi reported.

The odds ratios for the prevalence of CCSVI were 1.55 (95% confidence interval [CI], 0.72 - 3.36; P = .30) for patients with MS vs healthy controls and .05 (95% CI, 0.47 - 2.39; P = .99) for patients with MS vs other those with neurologic diseases.
CCSVI prevalence in clinically isolated syndrome was 3.46% in patients with relapsing-remitting MS, 3.77% in those with secondary progressive MS, and 4.76% in those with primary progressive MS (P for heterogeneity = .24; P for trend = .10).
The major risk factor for the presence of CCSVI was the sonologic center (P = .013), said Dr. Comi. "There are believers in life, there are the non-believers," he said, referring to the divisive controversy that has arisen around this issue.
CCSVI was diagnosed more often in the local centers, but again, the prevalence did not significantly differ among the groups: CCSVI was diagnosed in 15.88% of patients with MS but also in 11.97% of healthy controls and 15.04% of patients with other neurologic diseases.
The agreement between local and central readers was high for negative diagnoses of CCSVI, at 92%, but much lower for positivity, at only 18%.
"So I think the conclusion is very easy — at least for us; I'm not convinced that everybody will be of the same view, but at least in this room — I think that using the scientific approach, you will agree that this study indicates that CCSVI is not associated with multiple sclerosis, and also is not associated to other neurological diseases," Dr. Comi concluded.
After the presentation, Jerry Wolinsky, MD, from the University of Texas Health Science Center, Houston, pointed out that in a separate presentation here, their group reported that CCSVI criteria put forward by Dr. Zamboni were met on neurosonography in 3.88% of their smaller group of patients with MS, also with use of blinded readers, he said, similar to the value found by the COSMO group.
"I was always worried that we were finding a value that was too low, but I don't think I'm alone anymore," Dr. Wolinsky told Medscape Medical News. "So our conclusions are if [CCSVI] exists it's very uncommon, and we really don't find anything in our data that would be highly supportive of this being a) specific to MS, or b) likely being of pathophysiologic consequence for anyone."
Dr. Zamboni Responds
During a press conference on these findings, Dr. Comi noted that Dr. Zamboni was part of the group that launched the COSMO trial but had withdrawn from participation on the basis of objection to the methods.
Asked for comment on the findings, Dr. Zamboni confirmed that he was not happy with the COSMO study design.
"Our seminal paper published in 2009 in JNNP compared Doppler sonography with catheter venography, and found 90% and 75% abnormalities respectively in the jugular and in the azygous veins of MS patients," he told Medscape Medical News. "COSMO trial was initially aimed to verify my data in a wide sample and in a multicenter setting."
"Unfortunately," he said, the study compared Doppler sonography with the agreement of 3 central readers. "This design is not [as] solid of course as comparing ultrasound with venography," Dr. Zamboni added. Moreover, 90% of CCSVI cases discovered in peripheral centers were over-ruled by the central readers, and classified as false positive.
"To me, this study mainly confirms the absence of reproducibility of Doppler sonography in the absence of good CCSVI training, and further suggests to assess patients via [multimodal] diagnostic techniques."
Procedure Not Without Risk
In a separate paper presented here, researchers with the MS Study Group–Italian Society of Neurology, which included some of the COSMO investigators, reported results of an observational study with the aim of defining efficacy and safety outcomes among patients with MS who had elected to have endovascular treatment to address CCSVI.
Included in the study were 462 patients from 33 Italian MS centers. At a mean follow-up of 30 weeks, there was no statistical difference between baseline and follow-up Expanded Disability Status Scale (EDSS) scores, said Angelo Ghezzi, MD, from Ospedale S. Antonio Abate in Gallarate, Italy, who presented the findings here.
"In spite of the fact that the clinical evolution was unchanged after the treatment, many subjects reported an improvement of their clinical conditions," Dr. Ghezzi noted. He acknowledged, though, that any improvements in fatigue or energy levels, for example, would not be picked up by the EDSS.
Table 2. EDSS Scores and Subjective Patient Evaluation Group EDSS Scores at Baseline EDSS Scores at Follow-up Evaluation Improved (%) Evaluation Stable (%) Evaluation Worsened (%) Whole cohort 4.9 + 2.0 5.2 + 2.0 52.5 36.5 11.0

Relapses were seen in 21% of patients. Among 171 who underwent magnetic resonance imaging, 35.7% of these had new lesions and 26.3% had new gadolinium-enhancing lesions. There was a nonsignificant increase in relapses among patients who stopped immunomodulatory therapy after the procedure, he noted.
Mild adverse events, including asthenia, headache, cutaneous rash after the procedure, and hematoma at the site of catheter insertion, were seen in 7.5% of patients.
However, serious adverse events occurred in 3.2% or 15 patients within 3 months of the procedure, he noted. One patient died of myocardial infarction. Jugular thrombosis occurred in 7 patients, hydrocephalus requiring shunting in 1, stroke in 1, paroxysmal atrial fibrillation in 1, status epilepticus in 1, aspiration pneumonia in 1, hypertension and tachycardia in 1, and severe bleeding from a bed sore in 1 who was receiving an anticoagulant after the procedure.
Dr. Ghezzi pointed to the recent warning issued to patients and healthcare providers by the US Food and Drug Administration about the safety of the procedure.
"To conclude, we did not observe a clear beneficial effect of endovascular treatment," Dr. Ghezzi said. "The mean EDSS was unchanged. Many patients continued to develop relapses, but it is important to stress that serious adverse events occurred in a number of patients."
"Many patients reported an improvement, but we have also to consider the possible placebo effect, considering this kind of intervention is called 'liberation,' and this produces very high expectations in people affected by multiple sclerosis," he concluded.
"And it is a matter of discussion if it is justified to propose a controlled study," Dr. Ghezzi added, "given the lack of evidence that there is a clear demonstration of the association between CCSVI and multiple sclerosis, and also the occurrence — in a small number of patients — of serious adverse events."
Dr. Comi told Medscape Medical News that in this study, the disease process continues to evolve after the treatment, "so at the end, we have risks and no positive effects, which is to me, too much to continue."
He says he initially had an open mind about this concept, "but many have jumped immediately from an idea to an action." And the risk of intervention appears to be double, not only with the risk for adverse events but also from the fact that many patients stop treatment with disease-modifying drugs. "I think it's the duty of the national societies, international societies, to inform patients about these types of risks."
Further Trials Ethical?
After presentation of the COSMO results, Dr. Comi was asked whether it is ethical, given these results, to recruit patients into trials of angioplasty for CCSVI.
"We made some jokes this morning because we feel really 'liberated' by this study from a difficult problem, but in reality, we have the problem here that some patients — many patients — decide to have these type of procedures and as we heard yesterday, some of them had a very severe prognosis," he replied. "And I think that because there is no rationale for a trial exploring the efficacy of liberation therapy, I personally think it's absolutely inappropriate that the government finances any type of investigation or research."
The release of these data comes hard on the heels of the recent announcement of a new study of CCSVI funded by the Canadian government. The MS community in Canada has been very vocal in advocating for such a trial, and on September 28, such a study was announced: "a collaborative initiative between the Government of Canada, the provinces and territories and the MS Society of Canada," a press release from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research notes.
Recruitment is set to begin November 1, 2012, with principal investigator Anthony Traboulsee, MD, medical director of the UBC Hospital MS Clinic. The phase 1/2 double-blind, controlled trial will include 100 patients, with a planned 2-year follow-up.
Paul O'Connor, MD, director of the Multiple Sclerosis Clinic and MS Research at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto and professor of neurology at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, was a session moderator during Dr. Comi's presentation here.
Although he is not involved personally in the planned Canadian trial, he is the national scientific and clinical advisor for the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada and has been involved in developing guidance for neurologists providing after-care for their patients who have left the country to obtain venoplasty or stenting to address CCSVI.
Asked for comment on this current situation and Dr. Comi's assessment about the ethics of continued investigation of the association of CCSVI with MS, Dr. O'Connor was circumspect.
"Well, I think that's his opinion," he told Medscape Medical News. "I think we need time to think through the implications of this finding, so I wouldn't be prepared to say at this point if I agree or disagree with him."
However, he was impressed with the quality of the COSMO data. "The study seemed to be very carefully done, with the appropriate attention to detail in terms of establishing the presence or not of CCSVI, and I was very impressed with the methodological rigor of the study. I think there's no reason to doubt that the findings are accurate, and would seem to indicate that the entity of CCSVI appears to be present in only a minority of people, whether or not they have MS or other neurological disease, or are healthy."
He said the key to the reliability in this study was the blinding of the central readers. "It was shown that those who may have been less blinded, the local readers, tended to find this condition more frequently, but equally in all 3 groups, but when you had people who were blinded, they found it less, and the experts found it less frequently than the local readers."
The British Columbia group with senior author Dr. Traboulsee also presented here at the meeting, a poster reviewing an observational study now underway, funded by the British Columbia Ministry of Health. The British Columbia CCSVI Registry is following patients with MS who have elected to have angioplasty or stenting to address the presence of CCSVI in order to ascertain some pre- and post-procedure health outcomes, as well as compile data on complications. All data are self-reported during telephone interview, noted Lucas Kipp, MD, from the Division of Neurology at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, who presented the data here.
To date, 80 patients have been enrolled, he said. About 10% have reported complications in the month after the procedure, and 11% in the month thereafter. Approximately 50% said they were somewhat or much better, and 50% said they were the same or worse in terms of function after the procedure.
"The plan is to re-interview them at 6 months, 12 months, and 24 months, and go from there," he toldMedscape Medical News. They hope to follow up these patients and capture changes in their functional abilities using EDSS scores, information that will require access to their medical records, he noted.


http://www.medscape....1?src=smo_neuro

#754 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 27 October 2012 - 15:15

New CCSVI Studies Negative, Procedure Not Without Risk
http://www.medscape....1?src=smo_neuro




1. Prećutao si da je reč o studiji izloženoj na skupu neurologa:

Neurology Medical Congress
Congress location: Lyon, France
Date: 10 - 13 October 2012
ECTRIMS = European Treatment and Research In Multiple Sclerosis

2. Ovaj čika doktor što je glavni samo što još nije na platnom spisku Ivančića i sinova

Giancarlo Comi, MD

Professor in Neurology, Vita-Salute San Raffaele University; Director, Department of Neurology and Institute of Experimental Neurology, Scientific Institute San Raffaele, Milan, Italy
...the following relevant financial relationships:
Served as an advisor or consultant for: Bayer Schering Pharma AG; Serono Symposia International Foundation; Merck Serono International S.A.; sanofi-aventis; Biogen-Dompé AG; Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd.; Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation
Served as a speaker or a member of a speakers bureau for: Bayer Schering Pharma AG; Serono Symposia International Foundation; Merck Serono International S.A.; sanofi-aventis; Biogen-Dompé AG; Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd.; Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation ...

#755 Eddard

Eddard
  • Members
  • 4,278 posts

Posted 27 October 2012 - 20:11

1. Prećutao si da je reč o studiji izloženoj na skupu neurologa:


Pa? Ili misliš da neurolozi nisu kvalifikovani da o tome diskutuju i istražuju? Ili si ti možda kvalifikovan da odrediš ko je kvalifikovan?

2. Ovaj čika doktor što je glavni samo što još nije na platnom spisku Ivančića i sinova


Ah ta farmaceutska mafija, the root of all evil. Da nije tog "platnog spiska", danas bismo većinu oboljenja lečili šećernom vodicom. Ali, ti ionako nemaš ni potrebu da znaš kako funkcionišu ozbiljna istraživanja u medicini, što je sasvim ok, ali ti to ne daje za pravo da svakog ko ima drugačiji stav od onog koji ti podržavaš, proglašavaš plaćenikom.

Nego, ti si nekako "prećutao" suštinu ovog članka, da malo probaš nju da komentarišeš, umesto što pišeš kojekakve insinuacije i paušalne ocene?

#756 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:50

Pa? Ili misliš da neurolozi nisu kvalifikovani da o tome diskutuju i istražuju? Ili si ti možda kvalifikovan da odrediš ko je kvalifikovan?


Ne mislim! Svi lekari su, manje-više, kvalifikovani da diskutuju o zdravstvenim problemima. Mene jako zanima šta kažu stomatolozi o uticaju CCSVI-a na razvoj karijesa, ili šta kažu urolozi o uticaju CCSVI-a na probleme sa prostatom, ili pulmolozi o povezanosti CCSVI-a i tuberkuloze... Ipak, u ovom slučaju, kada je reč o vaskularnom problemu, nekako najviše verujem mišljenju vaskularaca. Ako vaskularac smatra da moja vena nije dovoljno široka i nema normalan protok krvi, onda to ima veću težinu, nego šta o toj veni misli ginekolog, neurolog, endokrinolog...On otklanja problem iz svog domena, a ako to utiče i na popravljanje stanja kod pacijenta koji ima oboljenje koje "pripada" i nekoj drugoj specijalnosti... izvini molim te što je tako, neće se ponoviti.

Razlika između mog i tvog pisanja je u tome što ti pišeš na osnovu onoga što si (hteo da) pročitao ili čuo, a ja na osnovu onoga što sam lično doživeo i lično video. Da ti pojasnim: ja znam šta sam sve osetio posle intervencije. Dakle, to sam osetio na svojoj koži. Takođe, lično poznajem ljude koji su posle intervencije doživeli fantastična poboljšanja. Viđao sam ih i znam koje probleme su imali pre intervencije, a znam kako su danas. Nekoliko devojaka se porodilo, momak iz Sarajeva igra košarku, baja iz Novog Sada se pre neki dan sam popeo, peške, na 10 sprat... a pre intervencije su jedva uspevali da stanu na noge i to samo ponekad. Poenta je što sve njih ja lično poznajem, viđam, to su mi prijatelji, a nisam o njihovom stanju čitao ili čuo od nekoga.
Ovde svaka priča prestaje što se tiče poboljšanja koja su mnogi od nas osetili. Skloniji sam da, ipak, više verujem samom sebi i onome što vidim svojim očima kod ljudi koje poznajem, nego nekome kome je pogođen poslovni, finansijski ili neki drugi interes. Moj interes je moje zdravlje i u startu gubiš, bilo ti, bilo neko drugi, jer vaš interes ne može da bude jačine kao moj.

Dakle, možda nisam kvalifikovan da odredim ko je kvalifikovan, ali sam mnogo kvalifikovaniji, i od tebe, i od drugih pravih i samozvanih doktora, da odredim ko mi je i šta mi je pomoglo.

Ah ta farmaceutska mafija, the root of all evil. Da nije tog "platnog spiska", danas bismo većinu oboljenja lečili šećernom vodicom. Ali, ti ionako nemaš ni potrebu da znaš kako funkcionišu ozbiljna istraživanja u medicini, što je sasvim ok, ali ti to ne daje za pravo da svakog ko ima drugačiji stav od onog koji ti podržavaš, proglašavaš plaćenikom.


Možeš ti da glumiš velikog doktora i omalovažavaš sve što napišem, ali veliki doktori ne provode sate i sate kao administratori na forumu ili kao učesnici na istim (na pr. doktor.rs, stetoskop ...). Oni rade, a naporan posao im ostavlja malo vremena za chatovanje, a kamoli uređivanje foruma.
Kako bilo, i mala deca znaju da je farmaceutska mafija jedna od tri najače (uz drogu i oružje), ako ne i najača. Ne bih trošio i vreme i prostor i davio ljude pisanjem o poznatim stvarima. Još jednom ću da napomenem da najjeftiniji Interferon (za koji se upravo dokazuje da deluje, ne kod 30%, već kod 0% pacijenata) košta 12000 evra godišnje po pacijentu, pa preko raznih kompaksona, tajsabrija, gilenija... čija cena prelazi 30000 evra godišnje. O smrtnim slučajevima i drugim posledicama korišćenja ovih lekova (koji se non-stop povlače iz upotrebe,pa ponovo odobravaju) nekom drugomakult prilikom. MS je jako skupo i nadasve profitabilno oboljenje.
Dakle, ja nikoga nisam i ne proglašavam plaćenikom, ovo su zvanični podaci. Legalno je biti glasnogovornik navedenih farmaceutskih giganata, za to primati novac od njih, ali je, takođe legalno očekivati da, ako neko navija za Zvezdu ( i prima novac za to ) neće govoriti hvalospeve o Partizanu, naprotiv, neće uopšte govoriti.
To se, uglavnom zove "sukob interesa", a da bi znao šta je to nije nužan medicinski fakultet.

Nego, ti si nekako "prećutao" suštinu ovog članka, da malo probaš nju da komentarišeš, umesto što pišeš kojekakve insinuacije i paušalne ocene?


Ništa nisam prećutao, nego ti ne razumeš baš najbolje. Nažalost, ovo je jedini jezik kojim kako-tako vladam, pa ćeš morati da nađeš nekog prevodioca.
Studije, koje su trajale 15 dana, ipak ne zaslužuju dublju pažnju.

Edited by TAU, 28 October 2012 - 20:34.


#757 vladan

vladan
  • Members
  • 25,392 posts

Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:32

Ovo sliovanje znanja i pameti i dalje traje???

#758 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:42

Ovo je onaj dekan što je dig'o frku protiv niških lekara koji rade CCSVI, a neki su ga podržali. Kazna jeste smešna ali...

http://www.b92.net/mobilni/info/658678

#759 Eddard

Eddard
  • Members
  • 4,278 posts

Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:25

To je više za temu o korupciji u zdravstvu, nego za CCSVI. Nema veze sa temom, ali ajde...

#760 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:47

...Ah ta farmaceutska mafija, the root of all evil. Da nije tog "platnog spiska", danas bismo većinu oboljenja lečili šećernom vodicom. Ali, ti ionako nemaš ni potrebu da znaš kako funkcionišu ozbiljna istraživanja u medicini, što je sasvim ok, ali ti to ne daje za pravo da svakog ko ima drugačiji stav od onog koji ti podržavaš, proglašavaš plaćenikom.


Možda su Ameri ovakvi ili onakvi, možda je sve ovo legalno... ali kod njih mora da se zna ko ti daje pare da pričaš hvalospeve o pojedinim proizvođačima lekova:

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF NEUROLOGY:

****** has served on scientific advisory board for Boehringer Ingelheim and Pfizer; serves as a consultant to Solvay Pharmaceuticals; has received speaker honoraria from Novartis, Boehringer Ingelheim, Abott, Hemofarm-Stada, and GlaxoSmit......

****** received speaker grants form Merck-Serono S.A. and travel grants from Bayer Schering Pharma......

******has received honoraria for lecturing or travel expenses for attending meetings from Bayer Schering, Merck Serono and Biogen Idec.......
******has received research grant support from Bayer Schering Pharma; has received speaker honoraria from Merck Serono S.A and Bayer Schering Pharma......

Pretpostavljam da je jasno zašto su pojedinci protiv CCSVI-a i sličnih jeftinih stvari. Ugroženi finansijski, poslovni... interesi. A tek sujeta...

Edited by nvukelic, 10 November 2012 - 20:38.
uklonjena imena


#761 vladan

vladan
  • Members
  • 25,392 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:54

Sta je tu jasno i sta ti pokusavas da dokazes?
Najobicnija nepismena i laicka lupetanja.
Meni je zaista licno zao da bolujes od MS, ali ti to ne daje ni trunku vise prava da pretendujes da o kompleksnosti tog problema i nesrecnika obolelih od ove bolesti nesto znas; za znanje o kompleksnom problemu MS nedostaje ti profesionalna edukacija.
Sve sto si napisao demantuje vecinska svetska strucna javnost.
S ovakvim stavovima, najbolje je da pomoc trazis kod baba-Paraskeve iz Przogrnce...

Edited by vladan, 10 November 2012 - 16:56.


#762 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:14

Sta je tu jasno i sta ti pokusavas da dokazes?
Najobicnija nepismena i laicka lupetanja.
Meni je zaista licno zao da bolujes od MS, ali ti to ne daje ni trunku vise prava da pretendujes da o kompleksnosti tog problema i nesrecnika obolelih od ove bolesti nesto znas; za znanje o kompleksnom problemu MS nedostaje ti profesionalna edukacija.
Sve sto si napisao demantuje vecinska svetska strucna javnost.
S ovakvim stavovima, najbolje je da pomoc trazis kod baba-Paraskeve iz Przogrnce...


Ja znam da istina boli, ali šta se može, Ameri vas provalili... Hebe se meni što uzimate pare, ali neće moći na račun mog zdravlja i zdravlja mnogih drugih. Da se nisi i ti zabrinuo da te braća ne pronađu kao ove gore? Pošteno, ne bih se mnogo iznenadio, grebeš i rukama i nogama protiv ovoga... obično to rade samo oni koji imaju neki (nečastan) interes. U suprotnom kažu, pusti budalu (mene i meni slične) i ne javljaju se.

#763 Eddard

Eddard
  • Members
  • 4,278 posts

Posted 10 November 2012 - 20:36

TAU, molio bih te da za ovakve insinuacije ne koristiš konkretna imena. Jedno je kad generalizuješ pa opleteš po svim neurolozima/lekarima, to samo pokazuje koliko nemaš pojma, a drugo je kad konkretno imenuješ nekog lekara, to je već kleveta i bez konkretnih dokaza za tvoje tvrdnje, takvo nešto ne može postojati na ovom podforumu.

#764 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:47

TAU, molio bih te da za ovakve insinuacije ne koristiš konkretna imena...


Je l' to pad koncentracije prilikom čitanja napisanog ili je u pitanju inteligencija? Kakve, bre, insinuacije? Reč je o zvaničnom izveštaju American Academy of Neurology. Imao si (dok nisi obrisao) i link za svako navedeno ime. U čemu je problem? Nisam ja objavio od koga navedeni dobijaju pare, već neko mnogo značajniji od mene. I sad si ti ispao faca, jer si uklonio imena. Dobro, evo bez imena, samo linkovi:


Jedno je kad generalizuješ pa opleteš po svim neurolozima/lekarima...


Daj ne loži se, niko nije opleo po svim neurolozima/lekarima, već samo po hoštaplerima, kojih ima i među lekarima kao i među svim drugim strukama. Moj otac je lekar, i dobar deo familije. Ne misliš valjda da ću ja da budem taj koji će da oplete po njima?

...to samo pokazuje koliko nemaš pojma...


Opet pad koncentracije? Mada sad mi već više vuče na ono drugo.

Edited by nvukelic, 11 November 2012 - 14:38.
linkovi uklonjeni


#765 TAU

TAU
  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:20

S ovakvim stavovima, najbolje je da pomoc trazis kod baba-Paraskeve iz Przogrnce...


Misliš, majka Vuke iz Pržogrnaca? Je l' ovako improvizuješ i na poslu ili je to rezervisano samo za Pozorište u kući?