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#46 Voo

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:10

QUOTE(Zero7 @ 1 Jun 2007, 04:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
galloway (koji je bio protiv rata u afganistanu i iraku btw, i svedocio na americkom senatu u vezi njegovog "posla" s saddamom) je klasicni westphalia-nista; dakle drzave imaju suverenitet, i nema tog slucaja i tih problema koji mogu na to da uticu. dakle, drzava moze da ubije svoje ljude, proteruje ih, da im oduzima licna dokumenta (da ne bi mogli da se vrate), da ih generalno tretira kao stoku, da uvedi de facto apartheid, i galloway ne bi rekao nista jer to je westphalianism - drzava je jedini organ koji ima pravo da se mesa u stanju ljudskih prava i drugih prava njenih drzavljana. cudno je kako on toboze veruje u autoritet UN-a, koji je suprotna organizacija par excellence njegovim politickim idealima i anti-teza njegovih principa.


Zero, ne postoji tako nesto kao klasicni niti vestfalijanizam uopste.
To, o cemu ti govoris, nikada nije postojalo.
Sami ugovori o miru, potpisani u Minsteru i Osnabruku, ticu se uglavnom regulisanja odnosa unutar jednog nadrzavnog subjekta, Svetog Rimskog Carstva.
Apsolutni suverenitet drzava je fikcija koja je naknadno nakalemljena na Vestfalske ugovore. Naime, nikada nije postojala u praksi. U bilo kom momentu istorije od 1648 do danas, drzave su i te kako intervenisale u poslove drugih drzava, s njihom odobrenjem ili bez. Jos je Vestfalskim mirom utvrdjeno da u slucaju krsenja sporazuma, potpisnice (Francuska, Svedska) imaju pravo da intervenisu.

Ako se sistem sastoji od pod- i nad- drzavnih subjekata i isprepletanih odnosa koji ukljucuju pravo na intervenciju (a o apsolutnom suverenitetu bilo kog aktera nema ni govora, vidi Krasnera) - gde ti tacno vidis Vestfalijanizam?

#47 comandante

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 13:00

QUOTE(Zero7 @ 1 Jun 2007, 05:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ja sam govorio o konceptu intervencije, a ne o tome kako su zemlje slicne. koncept je slican, a ne situacija na terenu.

Ja sam govorio o razlogu intervencije, zato je Irak drugaciji.

#48 insomniac

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 13:21

Mislim da po pitanju intervencje na Kosovu (da ne zalutamo kroz potpuno neadekvatne primere kao sto je Irak ili jos gore - WWII) nije nikada bilo toliko dvoumljenja koliko su Harper i uopste srpska strana umislili. Niko vise ne bere brigu ozbiljno o tome da li je bila opravdana ta intervencija pa da u ovom trenutku pokusava da kroz status kosova "opravdava" istu. Prosto receno: svi faktori osim Srba su prevazisli pitanje opravdanja te intervencije. Ali, istini na volju, Srbi, a i Albanci, imaju mnogo da prevazidju.

#49 Zli

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 13:59

Sa economist.com:

QUOTE
Kosovan independence

Jun 1st 2007
From the Economist Intelligence Unit ViewsWire
Russia is preparing to say nyet

Increasingly it is clear that Russia is poised to block Western plans to push through the UN a plan to grant independence to Serbia's breakaway Kosovo province. This poses a big dilemma for the EU which unlike the US cannot just walk away from the issue and which, not least because of its own miscalculations, is facing the prospect of yet another Balkan crisis.

Kosovo is formally still a part of Serbia but has been run as a UN protectorate since 1999. The plan of the UN envoy, Martti Ahtisaari, for the province's final status, supported by the US and main EU states explicitly recommends putting Kosovo on the road to independence. Kosovo is to have all the main attributes of an independent state, even during a transitional period of continued international (EU) supervision that is meant also to guarantee minority rights. It would be allowed to seek admission to international organisations, have its own security and defence forces, central bank, government, constitution and other trappings of statehood.

Unsurprisingly, the Ahtisaari plan has been rejected by Serbia and accepted by the Kosovo Albanians. For the latter, the prospect of continued, transitional international tutelage is seen as a small price to pay for the attainment of independence, which in time would become complete.
Security Council focus

Security Council focus
The Ahtisaari Proposal forms the basis of a Western draft UN Security Council resolution overturning Resolution 1244 from 1999, which preserved formal Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo. However, Russia's long-standing opposition to an imposed settlement has steadily hardened in recent months, with threats of a possible veto in the Security Council becoming ever more explicit in statements by Russian officials.

The strategy of the US and other supporters of Kosovo independence has been to first achieve maximum possible unity in support of the plan among Western nations and within the UN, and then to isolate Russia and to ratchet up the pressure on Moscow to back the plan, or at least not veto it. The strategy has largely succeeded in achieving broad EU acquiescence despite reservations among some member states (many of which have their own actual or potential secessionist movements). EU divisions still exist, but Kosovo has been taken off the agenda of recent EU meetings to give a show of unity and help increase the pressure on Russia. The necessary support of at least nine members of the Security Council has also been secured, after several waverers—uncomfortable with dismembering a UN member state—have been persuaded to support the plan. Of the 15 current members of the Security Council, in addition to Russia and China, only South Africa and Indonesia have yet to come on board.
Russian opposition

Russian opposition
Russia insists that a solution must be the result of a compromise between Serbia and Kosovo, and not be imposed on one side. It has been strongly critical of the Ahtisaari plan as being one-sided and it has complained about what it sees as blackmail at the heart of the process and urgency to resolve the issue (the threat of violence in Kosovo unless it gets independence). During his much-publicised speech in Munich in February President Vladimir Putin accused the West of trying to "play God" on Kosovo. A month late Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, speaking to the State Duma, insisted that Russia was not afraid of wielding its veto, adding "that's a matter of principle".

The May 30th meeting of G8 foreign ministers underlined the depth of Russian-Western disagreement. Mr Lavrov insisted on direct Serbia-Kosovo talks before the UN considers independence, and questioned why long-running disputes such as Palestine were not being tackled first. Although in the meeting Mr Lavrov reportedly refused to give a direct answer to the question of whether Russia would veto, in the subsequent press conference he said he couldn’t conceive of the Security Council approving an independence resolution.
Vital interests

Vital interests
Russia's motives on Kosovo have been widely misunderstood. A frequent assumption has been that Moscow was only acting as a spoiler or using the issue as a bargaining chip to extract Western concessions on other matters. Another wrong assumption is that Russia would seek to use Kosovo independence as a precedent to secure the formal break-up of CIS states such as Georgia and Moldova (this is the exact opposite of what is in Russia's interest).

Russia is a conservative power that has an interest in a UN-based order (which has been heavily eroded in recent years), whose foundation stone is respect for national sovereignty. Kosovo is seen in Moscow as yet another example of the West's selective adherence to international legality. At stake for Russia are the principles of state sovereignty and the inviolability of borders. This is a much more important consideration than support for a fellow Slavic country and historic ally, Serbia. Discomfort for Russia also stems from the fact that a change in borders will have resulted from a war that NATO waged in 1999 in the face of Russian opposition and without UN authorisation.

Russia is troubled by the precedent that granting Kosovo independence would set for others with separatist aspirations in the CIS, Balkans and elsewhere. It would be the first instance since the collapse of the Soviet Union and former Yugoslavia in which a sub-republican unit became independent. Indeed leaders or spokesmen for some of the 50-odd separatist movements around the world are already drawing explicit comparisons, arguing that Kosovo will underpin their own independence aspirations.

Although not primary, other factors also help explain Russia's stance. It would not be that simple for the Russian government to abandon Serbia, even if Moscow had been more circumspect in voicing its opposition to the Ahtisaari plan. Among the Russian elite there is still a sense of humiliation that Russia was not able to protect a traditional ally from NATO in 1999.

The possibility of intra-Western and especially intra-EU discord if there is no new UN Resolution might be attractive to Russia, given its currently troubled relations with the West. Finally, Mr Putin might want a tangible foreign policy success to round of the final year of his presidency. Frustrating what Russia sees as yet another instance of the US seeking unilaterally to reorder world affairs might fit the bill.
What will Moscow do?

What will Moscow do?
The Western powers seemed intent on pushing a Resolution based on the Ahtisaari plan (under Chapter VII provisions) through the Security Council in May or June. The realisation that Russia was prepared to use its veto, and the discomfort in particular of many EU states with the possible absence of a UN imprimatur, has caused a recent stepping back by the US and others, and a readiness to extend the timetable, perhaps until September in order to try to overcome Russian objections. It is thought that the Putin-Bush meeting at Kennebunkport, Maine, on July 1st-2nd might be the final opportunity to hammer out an agreement.

It is, however, very difficult to see how a Russian-Western compromise can be cobbled together even over a more extended timeframe, given fundamental disagreement on the core issue—where sovereignty resides. Russia has circulated within the Security Council elements for an alternative Resolution, close to the Serbian position, that reaffirms Resolution 1244 (and thereby precludes Kosovo independence), takes note of some elements of the Ahtisaari Comprehensive Proposal for the governance of Kosovo and calls for further Serbian-Kosovo Albanian negotiations. This might also open the way for the EU to replace UN Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK).

Kosovo is at present just one of many points of disagreement in the increasingly fractious relations between a resurgent Russia and the West. Although crude horse-trading over Kosovo is not on the agenda, this is the context in which the extremely difficult task of trying to achieve a Western-Russian compromise over Kosovo will take place in the coming weeks and probably months.

Possible amendments to the Ahtisaari plan that have been mooted (a Russian official to oversee minority rights and perhaps some delays in Kosovo's independence and/or UN membership) are likely to be dismissed as window dressing and will not secure Russian agreement. For Russia to accept anything that remotely resembles the Ahtisaari plan would represent an embarrassing climb-down and loss of face. It would also imply acquiescence to the opening of a dangerous "Pandora's box", from Russia's point of view, of disputed post-communist borders.
The EU's quandary

The EU's quandary
The situation poses an immense dilemma for the EU. The US can in the end sidestep the UN process, as it has before on other issues, recognise Kosovan independence unilaterally and even pull its troops out of the province. The EU, on the other hand, cannot just walk away. To follow the US in recognising Kosovo independence, in contravention of existing UN Resolutions, would split the EU and make it very difficult to assume intended responsibilities in the province. Ignoring the UN as during the 1999 NATO intervention, does not look like a palateable option for most EU states this time around. On the other hand, to back off and effectively shelve Kosovo independence for the time being risks causing a major backlash among Kosovo Albanians, whose expectations of independence are sky-high--not least because leading EU states, and especially the European Commission, ruled out other options early on in the process.

The dilemma is part of the EU’s own making and the result of miscalculation. Whereas similar intractable conflicts have defied resolution for decades, leading EU nations and the European Commission presumed that Kosovo could be resolved in a year, and that Serbian and Russian opposition could be surmounted. Some in the EU also seem to have got carried away with what they saw as an opportunity to reinvigorate a rudderless EU and impart a new sense of purpose to the EU’s fledgling common foreign policy.

Instead, the EU is stumbling headlong into yet another Balkan crisis. Despite the fact that the US and Russia have the decisive input, major EU countries have shared responsibility for the process and the EU will now be left bearing the brunt of the burden of managing the fallout.


#50 Gjergji

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 15:39

QUOTE(COMMANDANTE @ 1 Jun 2007, 14:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ja sam govorio o razlogu intervencije, zato je Irak drugaciji.

A gde si o tome govorio? U ovom topiku?

#51 Nelica

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 15:49

Evo citam reagiranja na vijesti na B92 i svakodnevno nalazim postove anonimaca koji kazu nesto u stilu:


"Sada je jako vazno nastaviti pregovore,i pokusati sa okoncanjem svih "obaveza" prema haskom "sudu",a uz to jasno staviti do znanja da nikada ni u kom slucaju srbija nece menjati kosvo za ulazak u EU!
E onda,kad krenemo ka EU,kada budemo i po njima,deo civilizacije, UN ce morati skroz da uruse same sebe sa pojedinacnim priznanjem nezavisnosti kosova(rezolucija ne prolazi u SB)!
Mozda ce nam uzeti Kosovo,al bar nemojmo da im aplaudiramo,i bas sad treba maximalno teziti ka EU i daljim integracijama ka njoj,pa makar cena bila i hapsenje bivsih srpskih vojnika i generala
..."


Neke od nelogicnosti:
Kao da je Europa otela/otima Kosovo Srbima - a ovi ga nisu posteno izgubili.
Kao da Srbija posjeduje Kosovo koje moze mijenjati za nesto, ili ga izgubiti.


Pitanje: Zar ovakvi shitheads zaista vjeruju da je Kosovo jos uvijek u Srbiji?


Ne zamjerajte moj (mozda naivni) ton, jer meni se ne da razglabati o povijesti i medjunarodnim odnosima dok jos ni osnovno nismo utvrdili.

Edited by Nelica, 01 June 2007 - 15:49.


#52 beeva

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 16:02

QUOTE
Pitanje: Zar ovakvi shitheads zaista vjeruju da je Kosovo jos uvijek u Srbiji?


Nema potrebe da te cudi sto neki ljudi vjeruju u to kad je osnovna platforma vlasti u Srbiji u pregovorima upravo ta izjava tj komentar koji si pomenula.

#53 comandante

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 16:09

QUOTE(Gjergji @ 1 Jun 2007, 16:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A gde si o tome govorio? U ovom topiku?

Nisam nigde govorio o tome, samo sam objasnjavo njemu da je razlog intervencije drugaciji.

#54 harper lee

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 16:18

QUOTE(insomniac @ 1 Jun 2007, 14:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mislim da po pitanju intervencje na Kosovu (da ne zalutamo kroz potpuno neadekvatne primere kao sto je Irak ili jos gore - WWII) nije nikada bilo toliko dvoumljenja koliko su Harper i uopste srpska strana umislili. Niko vise ne bere brigu ozbiljno o tome da li je bila opravdana ta intervencija pa da u ovom trenutku pokusava da kroz status kosova "opravdava" istu. Prosto receno: svi faktori osim Srba su prevazisli pitanje opravdanja te intervencije. Ali, istini na volju, Srbi, a i Albanci, imaju mnogo da prevazidju.


Ima dvoumljenja itekako. Nemoj da zaboravis da se intervencija iz 1999. godine ne moze posmatrati kao izolovan slucaj vec kao pocetak procesa "urucenja" nezavisnosti Kosovu koje je trebalo trijumfalno da se zavrsi prihvatanjem Ahtisarijevog plana. Sve ostalo sto se desavalo poslednjih osam godina je samo bacanje magle unaokolo. Sve dok se taj proces ne zaokruzi, bombardovanje SRJ ce ostati aktuelno kao integralni deo plana o odvajanju Kosova od Srbije. Uostalom, to je vec poznati patern - rat-mirovna konferencija-promena politickog statusa.

Ja shvatam da jos uvek mnogi i na Kosovu i u Srbiji misle da je NATO napao SRJ braneci humanitarne principe i sprecavajuci humanitarnu katastrofu. To misljenje je diletantsko. Cak i da je to bio motiv za akciju, kako bilo ko zamislja da bi se taj "humanitarni" aspekt mogao trajno odrzati bez promene fundamentalnih politickih uslova, u ovom slucaju izmestanjem politicke uprave. Uostalom, i sam Klinton je na pocetku bombardovanja izjavio da je motiv za vojnu akciju bio "to drive away Serbs from Kosovo", odlucivsi da poveruje u svoju sopstvenu propagandu o tome kako su "Serbs" na Kosovu predstavljeni iskljucivo vojskom, policijom i drzavnim aparatom.

#55 Nelica

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:04

QUOTE(harper lee @ 1 Jun 2007, 18:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ima dvoumljenja itekako. Nemoj da zaboravis da se intervencija iz 1999. godine ne moze posmatrati kao izolovan slucaj vec kao pocetak procesa "urucenja" nezavisnosti Kosovu koje je trebalo trijumfalno da se zavrsi prihvatanjem Ahtisarijevog plana. .....



Ja pak mislim ( i nisam u manjini) da je urucenje nezavisnosti pocelo s "Niko ne sme da vas bije!" govorom kojem je pak prethodilo ukidanje autonomije Kosovu.

#56 harper lee

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:10

QUOTE(Nelica @ 1 Jun 2007, 18:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ja pak mislim ( i nisam u manjini) da je urucenje nezavisnosti pocelo s "Niko ne sme da vas bije!" govorom kojem je pak prethodilo ukidanje autonomije Kosovu.


Nije tacno. Milosevic je to izjavio aprila 1987. godine a Albanci, bar tako zvanicno tvrde, su se prvi put odlucili za nezavisnost na referendumu iz (ako se dobro secam) 1992. godine. U simbolickoj ravni mozda i jesi u pravu, ali to je izuzetno nategnuto i vise se oslanja na medijske spekulacije manje ili vise zainteresovanih posmatraca kosovskog problema sa strane, nego sto je rezultat ozbiljnog i promisljenog stava. U politickoj ravni, odluka da se pitanje Kosova resi odvajanjem Kosova od Srbije doneta je 12. avgusta 1998. godine u Vasingtonu, na sastanku Klintonovog kriznog staba.

#57 jovanz021

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:32

QUOTE(Rastko @ 1 Jun 2007, 10:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Drugim Zalivskim ratom nije u pravom smislu prekršena Povelja UN i 'međunarodno pravo'.


Напротив, јесте прекршена, али је до извесне мере легализована накнадном резолуцијом СБ УН. До које мере, моћи ћемо да видимо ако Ирак некада покрене спор пред МСП.

QUOTE(Rastko)
Dešavanja u međunarodnim odnosima (Afganistan01/2, Irak03, Kosovo99, Kosovo07/8), predstavljaju zapravo običajno ukidanje Povelje UN kroz njeno preširoko tumačenje, veta u Savetu bezbednosti, samoinicijativne akcije i slično.


Не, већ представљају повреде права које нису праћене одговарајућом поступком за утврђивање повреде и санкцијом.

QUOTE(Rastko)
...postoji mogućnost da Rusija glasa protiv ali da rezolucija bude poslata Generalnoj skupštini pa tako opet usvojena


Ова могућност не постоји јер СБ УН одлучује о стварима на основу главе 7, а не скупштина. 1244 донета је на основу главе 7.

QUOTE(Rastko)
...konačno - da bude unilateralno priznata od ključnih igrača...


На основу оваквог признања КиМ би могло да буде примљено и у УН, под условом да већина у Генералној Скупштини гласа за то, али и онда само под условом да нико не уложи вето – што се неће догодити.

Уколико би КиМ било унилатерално признато, (са или без накнадног пријема у УН) поента је у томе што када се будемо* вратили на КиМ нећемо плаћати репарације ни за шта што се у међувремену буде изградило – нпр. Електране. Што јако компликује живот и КиМ и потенцијалним инвеститорима.

QUOTE(Rastko)
Sa zadovoljstvom čitam stavove forumaša jer sam potpuno nestručan kada su u pitanju dešavanja oko Kosova.


Ниси једини.

*=Срби, Србија,

#58 Zero7

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:34

pa sad.. ko je doneo odluku i kada, to je spekulacija. ono sto je jasno je referendum 1991-te godine (ako se ne varam) za nezavisnost, ali i deklaracija emancipacije od srbije ali unutar sfrj 1990 ispred skupstine SAP Kosova.

#59 Zero7

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:37

QUOTE
На основу оваквог признања КиМ би могло да буде примљено и у УН, под условом да већина у Генералној Скупштини гласа за то, али и онда само под условом да нико не уложи вето – што се неће догодити.


s tim sto u generalnoj skupstini UN-a nema niko pravo na veto, i odluke se donose 2/3-skom glasanjem. 57 drzava se vec opredelilo za glasanje za na skupstini UN (pogledaj rezoluciju islamske konferencije, islamabad, 2007) + amerika + eu + albanija + makedonija + svajcarska + itd...

2/3 ce biti za, ako do toga dodje.

#60 harper lee

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 17:38

QUOTE(Zero7 @ 1 Jun 2007, 18:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
pa sad.. ko je doneo odluku i kada, to je spekulacija. ono sto je jasno je referendum 1991-te godine (ako se ne varam) za nezavisnost, ali i deklaracija emancipacije od srbije ali unutar sfrj 1990 ispred skupstine SAP Kosova.


Da, moguce je da je referendum bio 1991. godine, ne secam se vise tacno. Sto se tice ove odluke u Vasingtonu to nije nikakva spekulacija. Postoji obimna dokumentacija, kao i arhivska i memoarska gradja, koja ovu odluku smesta upravo u taj datum i na taj sastanak.