???
jel gledao neko "Lost in translation" ?
Started by
Inter
, Jan 22 2004 03:16
90 replies to this topic
#4
Crippled Avenger
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Posted 23 January 2004 - 15:30
Gledao sam ja. Film je vrlo zanimljiv. Definisao bih ga kao BRIEF ENCOUNTER za novu generaciju. Propusten kroz arty socivo. Ta vrsta filma nij moj cup pf tea. Stavise ja se gnusam takvih filmova, ali za ovaj osecam neizmerno postovanje i preporucujem ga.
Najbolje poredjenje se moze napraviti preko ljudi koji su radili muziku za Coppolinu malo. Ako je VIRGIN SUICIDES u fazonu grupe Air, onda je LOST IN TRANSLATION u stilu Kevin Shieldsa. Shieldsov pristup obozavam. Ali u muzici.
Najbolje poredjenje se moze napraviti preko ljudi koji su radili muziku za Coppolinu malo. Ako je VIRGIN SUICIDES u fazonu grupe Air, onda je LOST IN TRANSLATION u stilu Kevin Shieldsa. Shieldsov pristup obozavam. Ali u muzici.
#5
Gojko & Stojko
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 01:46
Dok sam gledao film u bioskopu, nerviralo me kako se veci deo ovdasnje publike smeje na ocigledne scene humora na japanski racun (pa sta ako se covek savija da bi stao pod tus - i ja se tako savijam u zapadnim hotelima, i saginjem se kad prolazim kroz vrata ili ulazim u lift, pa se ne osecam kao u zemlji liliputanaca) - i moja ocena filma je da osim nekoliko dobrih momenata (koji su, usput, svi stali u trejler) u filmu i nema toliko mnogo. Po meni je film ocigledan primer sta od mediokritetnog filma moze da uradi jaka holivudska propaganda. Vec sam ovde negde spomenuo ovdasnji "Japanese Story" sa Toni Colette - steta sto taj film nema jacu finansijsku podrsku velikog studija da bi dosao do sire publike (mada je ovde i na box-office-u prosao bolje nego Lost in Translation) - sudar zapadne i japanske kulture je prikazan na malo suptilniji i prisniji nacin nego kod Kopole.
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Kritika jednog Japanese-American-a iz londonskog Guardian-a (napokon jedan iskren prikaz filma):
Can't touch African-Americans, so roll out the 'funny' Orientals
February 3, 2004
Director Sofia Coppola's praised film feeds the racist stereotypes of the modern Japanese, just for laughs, writes Kiku Day.
Film reviewers have hailed Sofia Coppola's Lost in Translation as though it were the cinematic equivalent of the second coming. One paper even called it a masterpiece. Reading the praise, I couldn't help wondering not only whether I had watched a different movie, but whether the plaudits had come from a parallel universe of values.
Lost in Translation is being promoted as a romantic comedy, but there is only one type of humour in the film that I could see: anti-Japanese racism, which is its very spine.
In the movie, Bill Murray plays the alienated Bob, a middle-aged actor shooting whisky commercials in Tokyo. He meets the equally alienated Charlotte, played by Scarlett Johansson, a Yale graduate accompanying her fashion photographer husband.
The film is billed as exploring their disconnection from the country they are visiting and from their spouses, and how they find some comfort in one another through a series of restrained encounters.
But it's the way Japanese characters are represented that gives the game away. There is no scene where the Japanese are afforded a shred of dignity. The viewer is sledgehammered into laughing at these small, yellow people and their funny ways, desperately aping the Western lifestyle without knowledge of its real meaning. It is telling that the longest vocal contribution any Japanese character makes is at a karaoke party, singing a few lines of the Sex Pistols' God Save the Queen.
The Japanese half of me is disturbed; the American half is, too. The Japanese are one-dimensional and dehumanised in the movie, serving as an exotic background for Bob and Charlotte's story, like dirty wallpaper in a cheap hotel.
How funny is it to put the 1.8 metres-plus Bill Murray in a lift with a number of overly small Japanese?
To manufacture a joke, the film has Murray contorting himself to have a shower because its head isn't high enough for him - although he is supposed to be staying in a five-star hotel.
It's made up simply to give Western audiences another stereotype to laugh at. And haven't we had enough about the Japanese confusing rs and ls when they speak English?
While shoehorning every possible caricature of modern Japan into her movie, Coppola is respectful of ancient Japan. It is depicted approvingly, though ancient traditions have very little to do with the contemporary Japanese.
The good Japan, according to this director, is Buddhist monks chanting, ancient temples, flower arrangement; meanwhile she portrays the contemporary Japanese as ridiculous people who have lost contact with their own culture.
Coppola follows in the footsteps of a host of American artists who became very interested in the cultural appropriation of East Asia after World War II. The likes of Lou Harrison, Steve Reich and John Cage took "Eastern" philosophy, music and concepts to fit an image of the mysterious East, which is always related to ancient civilisations.
Those not conforming to this never have a voice of their own. They simply don't have a story to tell, or at least not one that interests "us". This is the ignoble tradition into which Lost in Translation fits. It is similar to the way white-dominated Hollywood used to depict African-Americans - as crooks, pimps, or lacking self-control compared with white Americans.
The US is an empire, and from history we know that empires need to demonise others to perpetuate their own sense of superiority. Hollywood, so American mythology has it, is the factory of dreams. It is also the handmaiden to perpetuating the belief of the superiority of US cultural values over all others and, at times, to whitewashing history.
The caricatures play to longstanding American prejudice about Japan. The US forced Japan to open up for trade with other countries in 1864, ending 400 years of isolationist policy by the Tokugawa regime. The US interned thousands of Japanese during World War II and dropped two nuclear bombs on the country. After Japan's defeat, America became more influential in East Asia; Japan was occupied, not only by the US forces but, more important, politically and culturally.
Some have hailed the film's subtlety, but to me it is reminiscent of the racist jokes about Asians and black people that comedians told in British clubs in the 1970s.
Yet instead of being shunned, the film this week received eight British Academy award nominations, and has four Oscar nominations, including for best picture.
Coppola's negative stereotyping of the Japanese makes her more the thinking person's Sylvester Stallone than a cinematic genius.
Good luck to the director for getting away with it, but what on earth are people with some semblance of taste doing saluting it?
The Guardian
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Kritika jednog Japanese-American-a iz londonskog Guardian-a (napokon jedan iskren prikaz filma):
Can't touch African-Americans, so roll out the 'funny' Orientals
February 3, 2004
Director Sofia Coppola's praised film feeds the racist stereotypes of the modern Japanese, just for laughs, writes Kiku Day.
Film reviewers have hailed Sofia Coppola's Lost in Translation as though it were the cinematic equivalent of the second coming. One paper even called it a masterpiece. Reading the praise, I couldn't help wondering not only whether I had watched a different movie, but whether the plaudits had come from a parallel universe of values.
Lost in Translation is being promoted as a romantic comedy, but there is only one type of humour in the film that I could see: anti-Japanese racism, which is its very spine.
In the movie, Bill Murray plays the alienated Bob, a middle-aged actor shooting whisky commercials in Tokyo. He meets the equally alienated Charlotte, played by Scarlett Johansson, a Yale graduate accompanying her fashion photographer husband.
The film is billed as exploring their disconnection from the country they are visiting and from their spouses, and how they find some comfort in one another through a series of restrained encounters.
But it's the way Japanese characters are represented that gives the game away. There is no scene where the Japanese are afforded a shred of dignity. The viewer is sledgehammered into laughing at these small, yellow people and their funny ways, desperately aping the Western lifestyle without knowledge of its real meaning. It is telling that the longest vocal contribution any Japanese character makes is at a karaoke party, singing a few lines of the Sex Pistols' God Save the Queen.
The Japanese half of me is disturbed; the American half is, too. The Japanese are one-dimensional and dehumanised in the movie, serving as an exotic background for Bob and Charlotte's story, like dirty wallpaper in a cheap hotel.
How funny is it to put the 1.8 metres-plus Bill Murray in a lift with a number of overly small Japanese?
To manufacture a joke, the film has Murray contorting himself to have a shower because its head isn't high enough for him - although he is supposed to be staying in a five-star hotel.
It's made up simply to give Western audiences another stereotype to laugh at. And haven't we had enough about the Japanese confusing rs and ls when they speak English?
While shoehorning every possible caricature of modern Japan into her movie, Coppola is respectful of ancient Japan. It is depicted approvingly, though ancient traditions have very little to do with the contemporary Japanese.
The good Japan, according to this director, is Buddhist monks chanting, ancient temples, flower arrangement; meanwhile she portrays the contemporary Japanese as ridiculous people who have lost contact with their own culture.
Coppola follows in the footsteps of a host of American artists who became very interested in the cultural appropriation of East Asia after World War II. The likes of Lou Harrison, Steve Reich and John Cage took "Eastern" philosophy, music and concepts to fit an image of the mysterious East, which is always related to ancient civilisations.
Those not conforming to this never have a voice of their own. They simply don't have a story to tell, or at least not one that interests "us". This is the ignoble tradition into which Lost in Translation fits. It is similar to the way white-dominated Hollywood used to depict African-Americans - as crooks, pimps, or lacking self-control compared with white Americans.
The US is an empire, and from history we know that empires need to demonise others to perpetuate their own sense of superiority. Hollywood, so American mythology has it, is the factory of dreams. It is also the handmaiden to perpetuating the belief of the superiority of US cultural values over all others and, at times, to whitewashing history.
The caricatures play to longstanding American prejudice about Japan. The US forced Japan to open up for trade with other countries in 1864, ending 400 years of isolationist policy by the Tokugawa regime. The US interned thousands of Japanese during World War II and dropped two nuclear bombs on the country. After Japan's defeat, America became more influential in East Asia; Japan was occupied, not only by the US forces but, more important, politically and culturally.
Some have hailed the film's subtlety, but to me it is reminiscent of the racist jokes about Asians and black people that comedians told in British clubs in the 1970s.
Yet instead of being shunned, the film this week received eight British Academy award nominations, and has four Oscar nominations, including for best picture.
Coppola's negative stereotyping of the Japanese makes her more the thinking person's Sylvester Stallone than a cinematic genius.
Good luck to the director for getting away with it, but what on earth are people with some semblance of taste doing saluting it?
The Guardian
#6
aenima
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 02:46
Ovaj moze u rubriku 'medju nama'. Ja posle ovog filma pozeleh da zivim u Tokiju. I sta sad?
Mogu da se slozim da povremeno Sofie zavrsi u karikaturi, ali to je verovatno pitanje vestine. A i nije nelegitimno sredstvo u umetnosti.
#7
Gojko & Stojko
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 04:05
OK, niko ti ne brani da odes u Tokio da tamo zivis. Pojmovi "karikatura" i "suptilan" nekako ne idu zajedno. Za prvo je strucnjak bio Beni Hil, u neko davno vreme. Nisam bas siguran da bi mnogi njegov rad nazvali umetnoscu. Za drugo, kao sto sam vec rekao, tu je "Japanese Story". Sto se atmosfere tice, ja cu ponovo da odem na koncert Elvis Kostela kada bude u blizini, a Sofiju cu sledeceg puta da preskocim (u pravu si, zbog vestine).
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#8
Domazet
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 06:26
The good Japan, according to this director, is Buddhist monks chanting, ancient temples, flower arrangement; meanwhile she portrays the contemporary Japanese as ridiculous people who have lost contact with their own culture.
Prilichno tachno. Dodushe ne bih rekao ridiculous. Pre odd, sometimes in funny way...
#9
aenima
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 17:09
...a ja bih radije da mi DJ-ise Sofija, nego da citam tuzne (i iskrene, i iskrene!) ispovesti japanese-americana koga je pogodila tipizacija Japanaca u filmu americke rediteljke. Ko mu kriv kad filmove gleda kroz sociolosku dioptriju.
(ne, nisam ovim htela da kazem da su svi Japanci kratkovidi)
Gimme a break.
(ne, nisam ovim htela da kazem da su svi Japanci kratkovidi)
Gimme a break.
#10
Takeshi
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 20:45
Nisam stekao utisak da su Japanci sa podsmehom prikazani u ovom filmu, mislim da ih Sofia Coppola jako voli... jednostavno su razliciti od "zapadnjaka". A njihova spremnost da bezrezervno podrze neke elemente popularne "zapadne" kulture samo pokazuje otvorenost modernog Japana.
Inace film je simpatican, vise nekako u formi nego u sadrzaju (odlicna muzika, fotografija...atmosfera uopste), prica je vec vidjena ali upravo mesto odvijanja daje jasnijim zivotne dileme likova... pa su i resenja drugacija.
Inace film je simpatican, vise nekako u formi nego u sadrzaju (odlicna muzika, fotografija...atmosfera uopste), prica je vec vidjena ali upravo mesto odvijanja daje jasnijim zivotne dileme likova... pa su i resenja drugacija.
#11
macho
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 21:46
Sto se tice Japana, film je istinit i nije problem filma sto je Japan takav kakav jeste. Uostalom te fore sa Japanom su samo da pojacaju utisak "lonelines in a big city" i da ucine film viseslojnim.
Drugo, koliko se ja secam u filmu nema nijednog portreta (japanskog ili white) tj svi likovi osim Scarlett i Bill-a su krokiji (to je i poenta ne?) tako da mi se ne cini da su nesto ocrnjeni kao ljudi.
Aenima, kladim se da ne bi volela da zivis u strogo hijerarhijskom drustvu gde je poljubac drustveno neprikladan ali je musko balavljenje na pornografiju sasvim ok. I naravno nije ceo Tokijo tih par ulica u najskupljem delu grada.
Drugo, koliko se ja secam u filmu nema nijednog portreta (japanskog ili white) tj svi likovi osim Scarlett i Bill-a su krokiji (to je i poenta ne?) tako da mi se ne cini da su nesto ocrnjeni kao ljudi.
Aenima, kladim se da ne bi volela da zivis u strogo hijerarhijskom drustvu gde je poljubac drustveno neprikladan ali je musko balavljenje na pornografiju sasvim ok. I naravno nije ceo Tokijo tih par ulica u najskupljem delu grada.
#12
nonick
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 22:37
"Kritika jednog Japanese-American-a iz londonskog Guardian-a (napokon jedan iskren prikaz filma):"
ovaj clanak lici na one sa foruma politika. Nepravda. Mozda jeste south park satanistichka? 
I meni je bilo malo neprijatno na pocetku sa Bill-om (poziranje, translator) i stim izlizanim forama ali
to je bilo jako preterano i dosao sam do slicnog zkljucka kao macho: "Uostalom te fore sa Japanom su samo da pojacaju utisak "lonelines in a big city" i da ucine film viseslojnim."
ovaj clanak lici na one sa foruma politika. Nepravda. Mozda jeste south park satanistichka? I meni je bilo malo neprijatno na pocetku sa Bill-om (poziranje, translator) i stim izlizanim forama ali
to je bilo jako preterano i dosao sam do slicnog zkljucka kao macho: "Uostalom te fore sa Japanom su samo da pojacaju utisak "lonelines in a big city" i da ucine film viseslojnim."
#13
Domazet
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 03:09
A njihova spremnost da bezrezervno podrze neke elemente popularne "zapadne" kulture samo pokazuje otvorenost modernog Japana.
Hmmm, pa ne znam bash...
#14
chandra
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 10:57
Potpisujem. posebno to za zivot u Tokiju. Jedina stvar koja mi smeta je mozda upravo sto ziveti u Tokiju nema veze sa onim sto vidis na filmu. Za to je potrebno da budes matori dokoni glumac oslobodjen obaveze da radis, a sa dovoljno para da si mozes priustiti Hyatt.Ja posle ovog filma pozeleh da zivim u Tokiju. I sta sad?
Mogu da se slozim da povremeno Sofie zavrsi u karikaturi, ali to je verovatno pitanje vestine. A i nije nelegitimno sredstvo u umetnosti.
Moze da se gleda, zaboravlja se brzo i lako.
#15
aenima
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 14:23
Ha, da - tako mi rekose i za NYC.Jedina stvar koja mi smeta je mozda upravo sto ziveti u Tokiju nema veze sa onim sto vidis na filmu.
Wrong.
NYC jeste upravo kao na filmu. Ali i vise od toga.
U stvari mi se dopada raznovrsnost koju ima svaka prava metropola, nasuprot uredjenoj, umivenoj varosi.
Hyatt sam vise videla kao simbol usamljenosti.Za to je potrebno da budes matori dokoni glumac oslobodjen obaveze da radis, a sa dovoljno para da si mozes priustiti Hyatt.
Generalno, real life-u, (a i u Billijevoj filmskoj situaciji), hotel placa klijent za kog radis.
Edited by aenima, 07 February 2004 - 14:24.
