687 replies to this topic

[alpiner]

Renault: Rule changes not needed

Renault are confident that in time they will catch Mercedes as the latter has less room for improvement.

The introduction of the 1.6-litre V6 engines saw Mercedes come to the fore, winning 16 of last year's 19 races as well as both World titles.

That form continued into 2015 where once again the Brackley team and its power unit are the package to beat.

In sharp contrast, Renault have come in for some stick from their teams as reliability and a lack of pace have hampered them.

The French engine manufacturer, though, did get some affirmation from Red Bull and Toro Rosso in the wake of the Malaysian GP with both outfits stating there had been some progress.

And Renault reckon it is only a matter of time before they catch Mercedes given the law of diminishing returns.

"I would never say that we need to change the regulations in order to be assisted to catch up," Renault Sport F1 managing director Cyril Abiteboul told ESPN.

"I think we believe there is absolutely no reason why we could not catch up. I guess the question is just when and the amount of time needed to catch up.

"At some point at time the law of diminishing returns will kick in and it will kick in for Mercedes first and then Ferrari. This law will help us in catching them, although I'm not saying we are waiting for them to be limited."

"But," he added, "clearly we are behind and need to develop faster and that will be supported by this law.

"That will happen, we have to be a bit patient but also we have to build a plan so that this delay and period that is difficult for the Red Bull-Renault group is as short as possible."

Abiteboul, though, concedes that Renault need to use their tokens wisely rather than use them all.

"Clearly one thing we need for the next two years is to really have the right strategy and perfect alignment with all entities that are involved to make sure we make the best possible use of the tokens we have available.

"This season we have some tokens remaining and more than any other engine manufacturer, so we need to make very good use of that and next year there will be quite a lot [of tokens to spend].

"We pretty much have a completely new engine [this year] and we only used 20 tokens, so you can do quite a lot of changes with the tokens we have and we may actually be more limited by funding than by tokens because it's quite expensive to use those tokens.

“The one thing that where we need to be very careful is that there is no guarantee that you get performance improvement when you use a token and that's why you have to use it extremely wisely.

"It's not a race of token usage and from my perspective and the next discussion we must have [at Renault] is that the objective is not to consume tokens but to improve lap time.

"That's why we need to stay calm, not overreact and build a plan not just for this year but next year and also 2017. It's not the job of one winter to cover the type of deficit we have [to Mercedes]."
 

http://www.planet-f1...ges-not-needed?

[alpiner]

Manufacturers want to stick with V6 for new 1000bhp formula

The F1 engine manufacturers have agreed than any move towards 1000bhp engines for 2017 has to involve using the current V6 as a starting point.

None of them wants to go in the V8 direction that has been suggested by Bernie Ecclestone, and Mercedes boss Toto Wolff says that the V6 plan now has priority.

“The discussion about a 1000bhp engine has been around quite a while,” he said. “And I appreciate very well that it needs to be a spectacular formula, and if that’s the way forward then we should continue to work on it. But there are various groups coming together in terms of how the 2017 rules can look like in terms of power unit, and in terms of the chassis side. Yesterday there was a very valuable meeting, Charlie [Whiting] was there, Bernie was there, and concepts have been put in place to make it a spectacular new formula in 2017.

“All engine manufacturers are pretty clear that the current engine architecture with a hybrid component needs to stay in place. This is the direction we’ve headed to, and this is at least at the moment the current status between Ferrari, Renault, Honda and Mercedes.”

Wolff says that the current engines will in any case gain power as they are developed, and that a change to the fuel flow rules would be the easiest way to provide an extra boost.

“I think by 2017 those engines, between all manufacturers, are going to have north of 900bhp. Then it’s a question of how do you want to market that? Does it make a big difference between having 950bhp or 1000? I think there are pretty easy tools to increase the horsepower, and this is increasing fuel flow. If you want to increase the fuel flow by 10kgs an hour or 20kgs or whatever it is, then you are going to have more than 1000bhp.

“But you need to redesign crucial components of the engine, you need to make them more reliable, and that again involves a lot of development costs. We all understand that we want to have a spectacular formula, not only on the chassis side but also on the power unit side, and this is what’s being discussed at the moment – how to achieve it.”

http://adamcooperf1....00bhp-formula/?

[DASUBO]

Potpuno logično. Kakav crni V8 sa KERS-om. To bi bilo isto ka da neko babu sa plastičnim s..ama zove devojkom.
Na stranu to što bi Fiat, Mercedes, Reno i pogotovu Honda morali da "bace" motore u koje su sručili sumanutu količinu novca.
Čak je i Ferari napustio atmosferske motore i ubacio turbaljke ponovo.

[leone]

Stari provokator.

 

 

 

More on Bernie Ecclestone's interview with BBC Sport. On the German Grand Prix's absence from the calendar, Ecclestone says he gave the organisers every opportunity but could not get a deal together. And on a persistent whisper that Audi are keen to come into F1 but that chairman of the board Ferdinand Piech will not allow it while Ecclestone is in charge, Ecclestone says that he had not heard that, but if Audi did want to come in and would not do so while he was boss, he would step down straight away. Not many people in F1 would believe that, it has to be said."

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Ecclestone believes teams can run “cheap” engines in 2017

 

Bernie Ecclestone says that F1 engine options for 2017 remain open, despite Toto Wolff stating last weekend that all four current manufacturers want to keep a version of the current V6 for any new 1000bhp rules.

 

Ecclestone had been talking about a V8/KERS package, and that remains on the table as a cheaper option for struggling teams. There have also been suggestions that a ‘budget’ twin-turbo V6 with KERS could be made available to teams as a possible alternative.

 

In either case the idea is that these low-cost customer engines would run alongside their works counterparts, which brings up the difficult question of how the FIA would ensure some form of parity.

 

“It depends what we’re going to do,” Ecclestone told this writer. “Toto does a lot of talking, but no action, if you know what I mean. It’s no good talking about, ‘This is what I’d like.’ They are one team.

 

“I never wanted to go back to V8s, I wanted to set up a single engine to be in F1, which they could run for let’s say 10% of what these manufacturers spend. It would be a different regulation, which would be cheaper. If the manufacturers then decide this would be a good thing, then that’s OK. Or if they want to supply [current] engines at a realistic price to the teams, then good.”

 

Asked about how two types of engine could compete in parallel he said: “We used to run turbos with normally aspirated engines before. You can do either.”

 

How the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari would react if they face stiff competition from a good team equipped with a ‘budget’ engine remains to be seen.

 

Meanwhile the discussions could also be seen as a way of putting pressure on the manufacturers to lower the prices for the current engines. Costs went up considerably in the move from V8s to the hybrid last year, and midfield teams feel that they are funding the R&D of the works operations.

 

“You never have everybody happy. At the moment they are doing a very good R&D project supporting by the teams that are paying. That engine will never be used in any car or a boat or anything. It was never designed to do that. Just the regulations were put out, the engineers got hold of it, and said this is what they can do. They’ve done a super job, but it has to be cheaper.”

 

Berni hoce da svi u F1 voze iste motore. GP1

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Engine politics

April 24, 2015 by Joe Saward

 

 

There is much talk going on at the moment in F1 circles about engine regulations for the future, with a suggestion that there might be a compromise with different engines being used by different teams in 2017. This would mean a revival of the old pre-2014 normally-aspirated V8 engines, with their KERS systems, for the smaller teams, while the bigger teams would go on using the newer and more interesting V6 hybrid turbos. Getting such a change through the decision-making process would not be easy because the engine manufacturers are not going to agree to anything that would lead to them being beaten by older engines, but there is no doubt that this could be a way to provide the struggling small teams with cheaper engines.

 

In reality, it is also probably a way to try to get the manufacturers to agree to cut their engine prices to allow the small teams to use the existing engines, but at a much more affordable price. There is no doubt that the manufacturers can afford to do that if they want to, but obviously they are keen to make their F1 activities as cost-effective as possible and having customers to offset the expenditure is therefore a good idea for them. Logically, they should be arguing for the small teams to get more money from the Commercial Rights Holder, although no doubt he will be saying that that is fine, as long as the big teams provide the cash from their shares.

 

All of this remains something of a sideshow because the major conversation is actually about the way in which revenues will be divided up after the current deals end in 2020. A new Concorde Agreement, or its equivalent will be needed but it is clear that the manufacturers are keen for CVC Capital Partners to reduce the amount of money that they take from the sport. Having said that Bernie Ecclestone will still be working to divide and conquer the teams, as he has always done, and will no doubt be offering better deals to the big players. The only problem is that CVC may not be willing to reduce its shares of the take, in which case, it will need to sell the business, although that will be at a price that is far less than they want.

 

Having said all that of that, the costs of the new engines will be reducing in the years ahead as the research and development will slow as gains become more difficult to find and the level of competitiveness between the teams closes up again. This is a normal cycle in any new formula.

 

It would not be the first time that F1 has split its engine regulations to help smaller teams. In 1987 the big teams were running wildly-expensive turbos and the small teams were struggling with normally aspirated engines. In order to help them the FIA introduced two sub-championships: the Jim Clark Trophy for drivers of cars with normally-aspirated engines and the Colin Chapman Trophy for teams without turbo engines. Turbos were going to be banned in 1989 and with restrictions on them increasing in 1988, the sub-championships disappeared.

 

Such arguments are going to go on happening until the sport finds a long-term solution to its financing and that can only happen when the commercial rights holders agree to accept less, the big teams agree to reduce the amount they take and there is a solid structure in place with regard to the rewards. Debts will need to be looked after as well as CVC has taken a huge amount out of the sport, but if the commercial rights holder was to spend more time generating revenues from other sources and less quibbling with the teams, the sport might be able to move forward with everyone working together and everyone taking a fair share. That would be the sensible solution, but perhaps it is not achievable until a new generation arrives.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Dr Helmut Marko has accused Mercedes of actively helping Ferrari to catch the reigning world champions in 2015.

 

According to Mercedes team chairman Niki Lauda, it is no surprise that Ferrari is much more competitive this year.

 

"If you look at how much we won last year," said the F1 legend, "it was clear that it would not always be like that."

 

Red Bull official Marko, however, smells a rat.

 

"It is difficult to prove, but I am sure that Mercedes helped Ferrari," he told the German magazine Sport Bild. "And we all know why."

 

Austrian Marko reportedly senses a political motive, and not just Mercedes' desire to halt suggestions it is damaging F1 by dominating so easily.

 

He might also be referring to the engine rules, with Ferrari having now joined Mercedes in backing the current turbo V6 era, even beyond 2017.

 

Sport Bild suggests Mercedes may even have slowed its own development programme over the winter, and recommended that Ferrari sign up its hybrid specialist Wolf Zimmermann.

 

"We expected an improvement," said Sauber engineer Giampaolo Dall'Ara, referring to Ferrari's 2015 engine, "but such great progress in such a short space of time is difficult to explain."

 

Ovaj je prs'o...

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I meni je sumnjivo. Zarad zanimljivosti sezone sve je moguce.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

[Wingman]

Nek bude na jednom mestu

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118626]Tech insight: Honda's radical Formula 1 engine[/url]
[img]http://cdn.images.autosport.com/editorial/1429611783.jpg[/img]

Scarbs McLaren Honda PU Analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx4g_upH5dQ&feature=youtu.be

Edited by Wingman, 04 May 2015 - 22:49.

[alpiner]

Berger:

“I am not at all surprised,” said the Austrian, when asked about Renault’s struggle to match the pace of Mercedes and Ferrari in F1’s new ‘power unit’ era.

“Their factory is outdated. Mercedes has three times as many engineers and invests at least three times as much money,”

[alpiner]

Mercedes has hit back at claims the 'power units' featured in formula one today will never carry over to normal road cars. Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko was the first to make the claim, telling APA news agency last week: "As they are so difficult and complex, it will be impossible to use them in road cars."

And F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone, who also despises the current engine formula, told the latest edition of Autosprint magazine: "A friend of mine, who I will not name but who works for a big manufacturer, told me that the technical solutions on the current F1 hybrids will never be used on road cars."

But the BBC is now quoting Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell as insisting "exactly the same" technology will in fact be fitted to road cars in the future. He said car manufacturers are striving to make engines smaller and more efficient, with hybrid systems or electric motors then added to tackle the inevitable 'turbo lag'. "That's where F1 engines are road-relevant," said Cowell, who said today's F1 technology will "definitely" end up in road cars.

[staneC]

Nije vezano samo na motore, ali izgleda, da su ovi bolidi i sistem promašaj

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/32761397

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/32818968

[alpiner]

Fresh guidelines for F1 engine builders over reliability tweaks

Formula 1's engine manufacturers have been provided with fresh guidelines from the FIA with regard to improving the reliability of their systems, AUTOSPORT has learned.

At present suppliers Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda are allowed to make changes to improve the power unit on the grounds of safety and cost, along with reliability, without the need to use the permitted tokens for upgrades.

Now the FIA is demanding a clear explanation from all the teams as to why a change on reliability grounds would be required.

The technical directive issued by the FIA, and seen by AUTOSPORT, reads: "All requests for changes to the homologated power unit for the purpose of improving reliability should be made to the FIA in writing with copies to the FIA F1 Engine distribution group.

"All such requests, with supporting data where necessary, should be made eight days before the modified power unit is first used at an event and must include:

"Complete explanation of the failure (clear photographic evidence but also when and where the failure(s) occurred; part number references for old and new parts; exhaustive drawings of any new/modified components; test and investigation results supporting the request where applicable; any relevant supporting information from external suppliers."

http://www.autosport....php/id/119142?

[alpiner]

F1 accelerating plans for louder engines in 2016

Formula 1's engine manufacturer's plans to increase the noise level of its current V6 hybrid power units is set to be implemented in 2016, a year earlier than initially scheduled.

Intended to satisfy popular demand among F1 fans, the move was discussed by the teams over the Monaco Grand Prix weekend, and given the relatively low financial impact related to 'turning up the volume' it was decided to be put into effect as soon as possible.

The plan involves a modification of F1 engines exhaust system which at present use just a single exhaust exit. The 2016 configuration would include a second tailpipe which would deliver the straight sound of the engine, and thus heighten the power unit's direct level of uproar.

The proposal still requires approval of the F1 Strategy Group and, if majority support is garnered it will then be sent for unanimous consent before the F1 Commission.

http://en.f1i.com/ne...s-in-2016.html?

 

 

Tu je i Laudina priča: "We are working on a programme for 2017, although we could do it next year, to have six gears, not eight, because you only use eight in Monza and maybe Spa. With six gears they're going to rev higher so you're going to increase the noise level."

 

Zvuči jednostavno, ali da li neki prozvođači trenutno žele da im se motori vrte stalno na visokim obrtajima u šestoj brzini?

Edited by alpiner, 28 May 2015 - 09:58.