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[Rad-oh-yeah?]

McLaren claim Mercedes and Ferrari don't want to help with 2018 engine
Mercedes and Ferrari "like us where we are", Brown tells Sky Sports; McLaren director believes struggling Honda "can get the job done" in 2018; Alonso wants engine decision sooner rather than later

By Matt Morlidge
Last Updated: 18/07/17 3:57pm

 
Zak Brown has suggested Mercedes and Ferrari are unwilling to provide McLaren with a 2018 engine because they "like us where we are".

And, in the clearest indication yet that McLaren are leaning towards sticking with their current engine partners next year, the team's executive director has also told Sky Sports "we ultimately think that Honda can get the job done".

McLaren remain bottom of the constructors' standings at the halfway point of a hapless campaign and, though a split with Honda has never been confirmed, they had been in discussions with their competitors about a 2018 power supply.
 
But Brown says rivals, particularly leading teams and engine manufacturers Mercedes and Ferrari, are enjoying seeing Formula 1's eight-time champions towards the back of the grid.

"We're a big team that knows how to win races and championships so I think most of the teams, while it's a shame to see where we are, they like us where we are," Brown told Sky Sports News' Craig Slater. "They don't want to get us too close to them which is understandable."
 
It has been suggested that McLaren are encountering a similar situation as Red Bull did back in 2015 when they were looking to move on from Renault for Mercedes power.
 
Indeed, Red Bull team boss Christian Horner claimed Brown had told him that "he thought he was watching the same movie that we lived through" with Mercedes so far seemingly not keen to budge.

[Hertzog]

U sportskom smislu znam samo jedan primer gde je jedan ljuti rival pomogao drugom, a to je u bundesligi kada je borussia bankrotirala i bayern im posudio neke silne pare da ne propadnu, al i dan danas placaju taj ceh jer daju svoje vrhunske fudbalere Bayernu po nizim cenama i bez otkupnih klauzula

U tom smislu ne vidim nacin pomoci Ferrarija, pa ni Mercedesa jer sada imaju svoj tim, a razisli su se sa njima pre par godina zbog braka sa Hondom. Njima ostaje samo Renault i verujem da su spremni da pomognu, a trenutno mi deluju kao bolji izbor od sadasnje Honde

Edited by Hertzog, 18 July 2017 - 16:27.

[4_Webber]

Ako je ista lepo u ovoj tragediji koja znaci da ostajemo sa Hondom, jeste da se F1 timovi i dalje plase Meklarena...

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

U sportskom smislu znam samo jedan primer gde je jedan ljuti rival pomogao drugom, a to je u bundesligi kada je borussia bankrotirala i bayern im posudio neke silne pare da ne propadnu, al i dan danas placaju taj ceh jer daju svoje vrhunske fudbalere Bayernu po nizim cenama i bez otkupnih klauzula

U tom smislu ne vidim nacin pomoci Ferrarija, pa ni Mercedesa jer sada imaju svoj tim, a razisli su se sa njima pre par godina zbog braka sa Hondom. Njima ostaje samo Renault i verujem da su spremni da pomognu, a trenutno mi deluju kao bolji izbor od sadasnje Honde

 

Ne moraju da pomognu, treba samo da prodaju motore pod istim uslovima pod kojima ih prodaju svojim ostalim musterijama.

 

Ali picke se plase.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Ako je ista lepo u ovoj tragediji koja znaci da ostajemo sa Hondom, jeste da se F1 timovi i dalje plase Meklarena...

Al vam je za utehu... pa bolje da vas se ne plase a da vam daju motore nego ovo.

 

Mada ne bi ni vi dobili iste motore kao u fabrickom timu.

Edited by Arnold Schwarzenegger, 18 July 2017 - 17:43.

[Hertzog]

Normalno da se plase, sigurno imaju jaci tim od nekog Haas-a i slicnih, pa je manja sansa da aero paket bude jak, a i u McLarenu ne mogu zatezati uzde kada se konj krene opirati

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

The major chat in F1 circles at the moment is all about engines and it is getting interesting. Sauber seemed to have the basis of a deal with Honda (it was announced by Honda and they tend not to be silly) but the word is that in order to get Frédéric Vasseur Sauber has had to agree to switch engines. Fred might like Mercedes and he is very close to Toto Wolff, but it seems that the F1 Commission needs to give permission for more than three supplies and one can see that this will never happen. The F1 Commission cannot agree on whether to open a window, let alone rules and regulations.

Given the political power of Mercedes (in terms of votes) one can see Renault and Ferrari wanting few Mercedes teams and more teams with their engines to give them more political clout. So Sauber will need to stay with Ferraris next year, probably 2018 versions of the engine, and the word is that F2 rising star and Ferrari protégé Charles Leclerc will be snapped to drive. Pascal Wehrlein will move on, which is probably sensible…

This means that McLaren’s only choice is to stay with Honda, or switch to Renault. No-one wants to see Honda kicked out of F1, least of all Honda, and the word is that the Japanese firm may do a deal with Toro Rosso (or perhaps even buy the team) so that they can remain in F1 until they can get the engines up to speed. Red Bull needs only insert a clause in any Toro Rosso deal saying that Red Bull Racing can have the units if they become competitive and Red Bull’s engine problems would be solved. It is a big if, but it is better than drifting on as is now happening. I have heard that there is still no real contract between Red Bull and Renault because of discussions over oil companies and so on, but going straight to Honda would be a bit radical so letting Toro Rosso take the pain, or selling the team (which Red Bull has wanted to do for a while) makes sense. That would mean McLaren and Renault, which would just about OK, even if it would be a bit of a risk for the Renault team. Still, they are getting beaten at the moment by Red Bull and sometimes Toro Rosso so clearly they need to improve. Would A McLaren-Renault be enough to keep Fernando Alonso? Does he have any other real choices?

...

Has McLaren finally decided to split with Honda? Who can say, but it is fare to say that the team has given the Japanese firm plenty of chances for things to get better. I would guess that there are two design teams busy in Woking, one for one engine, the other for the second. A decision must come back September. Going to Renault is not a great option for Woking but it would be better than where the team is now and my feeling is that in 2021 the team will have its own engines . McLaren is already making its own road car power units and it is only logical to go down this path in the future. That will add to the value as and when there is a McLaren IPO is 2022 or 2023.

 

https://joesaward.wo...liffs-of-dover/

[/13/Ален Шмит/]

Nemate predstavu koliko je ovo frustrirajuće, ko da gledam Tojotu i njene pobedničke ambicije u F1. Honda ima sve osim stručnog čoveka koji bi dizajnirao PJ kako spada. 

[/13/Ален Шмит/]

Honda to stick with current power unit concept next year

Honda has ruled out a complete overhaul of its power unit concept next year despite a disastrous opening half of the 2017 season with McLaren.

For the first two years of its Formula One return, Honda pursued a unique power unit architecture that saw the compressor and MGU-H nestled in the vee of the engine. This year it has started afresh with a similar layout to Mercedes, but it immediately encountered performance and reliability issues at the opening pre-season test in February.

Honda F1 engine boss Yusuke Hasegawa said the extent of this year's changes was on a par with starting the project from scratch, but he is still confident the new concept has the potential to catch rival engine manufacturers Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault.

"We introduced a new power unit concept this year, so I would almost call this Year One again," Hasegawa told the Honda website. "But our aim is to develop the 2017 concept into the 2018 season and hopefully 2019 as well. So the engine weight, centre of gravity and the combustion concept is all going in the same direction as the other three engine manufacturers.

"It was good for us to do that. We can modify the specification of some of these parts to catch up with the other three engine manufacturers. Last year the engine concept was completely different, so with minor modifications we could not duplicate the same type of performance. That's why we really needed to change the whole engine concept this year."

Despite more development opportunities opening up this year, Hasegawa said it was clear from the moment it was fired up that Honda's new power unit would face reliability issues and suffer a deficit in performance

"When we fired up the complete engine for the first time, we could see it wasn't delivering the durability or performance in accordance with our expectations. We also found many minor issues. So we needed to modify tiny bits.

"After resolving these smaller elements, we started to test the full concept at the start of this year -- call it Spec Zero as it was the initial one -- and before the first winter test we confirmed that it ran on the dyno.

"But of course at that moment we knew that the power was not delivering to our target. Then, at the Barcelona test, we found more issues on the car, such as the oil tank issue. It was a car-related issue. This is not a complete engine issue, but of course it is very important.

"Many items we could not test on the dyno, so it is normal that we need to check some functions in the car. The oil tank is one of the biggest items, so we have a rig for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of G forces and conditions as in the car. Of course, by design we have to consider the actual car situation in theory, but sometimes it is not always the same situation so that is why we had some issues with the oil tank first.

"The second issue was down to the vibrations. On the dyno, the model is stiffer and heavier, so it doesn't create any synchronised vibrations, but on the car -- with the gearbox and the tyres -- there is a much lower level of inertia. Low inertia does not always create vibrations but it's completely different from the dyno and that's why we suffered a huge vibration on the car. Of course, we were aware some level of vibration would come in the car but it was much bigger than we expected."

It is not yet clear who will be running Honda's power unit next year, with McLaren reluctant to confirm its engine partner for 2018 and Sauber's new deal also in question. But Hasegawa is confident Honda has a strong basis on which to develop its power unit concept for next year, regardless of where it ends up.

"We don't stop developing, we need to keep updating. Of course the performance and results are the most important things but it's all learning for the future too. Compared to last year we needed to modify the engine concept, but next year we will keep the same concept.

"It's good that we can use the same concept because this year's development and improvement is directly connected to next year. So that means we don't need to stop the current development, and from that point of view we have already started next year's design."

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Honda has revealed that it was caught by surprise with how bad its situation was ahead of the new Formula 1 season, as reliability woes had not shown up in dyno testing.

The Japanese manufacturer endured a difficult start to 2017, with a lack of power and poor reliability hampering its efforts and threatening its future partnership with McLaren.

Although it has made some progress since – finally scoring its first points of the year at the Azerbaijan Grand Prix – it is still facing big pressure to make further gains.

Reflecting on the season so far, Honda's F1 engine chief Yusuke Hasegawa said his company had been aware that progress on the power front had not been as big as had been hoped before pre-season testing, but it was the reliability factors that especially caught it out.

In an interview published on Honda's F1 website, he said that it was only when the company's 2017 engine ran on track for the first time that it became aware of the extents of the troubles it had.

"Many items we could not test on the dyno, so it is normal that we need to check some functions in the car," he said.

"The oil tank is one of the biggest items, so we have a rig for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of G-forces and conditions as in the car.

"Of course, by design we have to consider the actual car situation in theory, but sometimes it is not always the same situation so that is why we had some issues with the oil tank first.

"The second issue was down to the vibrations. On the dyno, the model is stiffer and heavier, so it doesn't create any synchronised vibrations, but on the car - with the gearbox and the tyres - there is a much lower level of inertia.

"Low inertia does not always create vibrations but it's completely different from the dyno and that's why we suffered a huge vibration on the car. Of course, we were aware some level of vibration would come in the car but it was much bigger than we expected."

While reliability has improved, McLaren is also urging Honda to bring more updates, with Honda's Spec 3 engine having raced for the first time at the Austrian Grand Prix.

Efforts are now focused on a Spec 4 for use later in the year, with Hasegawa saying that the company's decision to stick with the same split turbine and compressor concept for next year meaning it can push until the end of the campaign.

"We don't stop developing, we need to keep updating," said Hasegawa. "Of course the performance and results are the most important things but it's all learning for the future too.

"Compared to last year we needed to modify the engine concept, but next year we will keep the same concept.

"It's good that we can use the same concept because this year's development and improvement is directly connected to next year. So that means we don't need to stop the current development, and from that point of view we have already started next year's design."

 

 

Excel trkanje, samo da kosta sto manje, testiranje na stazi je skupo, uradicemo to "nazivo". Jajare.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Honda says it is staying in F1 with McLaren next year.

In 2017, speculation has been rife that the Anglo-Japanese works collaboration will end after three hapless years.

More recent rumours say the Sauber customer deal for 2018 may also be off, triggering suggestions Honda could be out of F1 completely.

But Honda F1 official Masashi Yamamoto told Sportiva: "I am always talking with president Takahiro Hachigo and the board members, and there is no intention to withdraw from formula one."

However, Yamamoto didn't deny that "talks" between McLaren and Honda are taking place.

"There is a contract between us and the premise of the talks with them is to continue," he said. "We exclude the possibility that McLaren will even temporarily use the power unit of another manufacturer.

"As for Sauber, we had very good negotiations with Monisha Kaltenborn and were moving in the right direction, but the new leadership changed course and now we are negotiating," added Yamamoto.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Fernando Alonso

"On paper, the Hungaroring presents one of the best opportunities for us this year. The short, twisty circuit means we are less reliant on outright power, and the drivers have to really depend on the capabilities of the chassis to get the best out of the lap.

"I always like returning to Budapest – we get to stay in the centre with great views of the river, and you feel like you’re really part of the city all weekend. The temperatures are high and it’s a testing weekend for the teams and drivers – especially since the summer break is so close, but a good result can be a great boost for everyone going into the shutdown period.

"The important thing for us, as always, is reliability. Even if our car could perform better in Hungary, we need to have a trouble-free weekend to take advantage of every opportunity for points. We made some big decisions in Silverstone in terms of taking grid penalties in preparation for this race, and hope that’s paid off so we can put ourselves in the best possible position for points this weekend."


Stoffel Vandoorne

"I really like the Hungaroring circuit – although it’s not the fastest in term of outright pace, its technical layout means it feels quick and requires 100% commitment and concentration all the way around the lap. There are a lot of quick changes of direction, and the twisty configuration means you have to have your line spot-on every time to get the best out of a lap.

"The layout combined with the high temperatures means it’s tough on the cars, and you need a strong and stable chassis to be able to get the nose in at the right time and allow you the best possible exit to get ready for the next corner. The straights are short, so it’s all about setting up the car with as much downforce as possible for the corners.

"I’ve won in Hungary before, in GP2, and I enjoy driving on this track. Although we’ve been a bit unlucky, I feel that my performances have been consistent and improving race-by-race. I’ve been working hard with the engineers and I feel confident in the car – my weekends are coming together better now in the first part of the season and as a team we are progressing every weekend. We have to be patient, keep working hard, and I hope to see the reward for our efforts paying off soon."


Eric Boullier

"We head to Hungary ready to tackle the final race weekend before the summer break. I salute and send a heartfelt ’thank you’ to all of our McLaren-Honda colleagues, who have worked tirelessly throughout the winter and all season long, despite the difficult challenges we’ve faced together. Soon, there’ll be time for a well-deserved break with their families, but, before then, we’re fully focussed on the weekend ahead and determined to come away from Budapest with a positive result.

"Our pace at Silverstone was marginally better than we initially expected on what is considered to be a power-hungry circuit, and therefore a track traditionally more difficult for our car to adapt to. Hungary is a completely different proposition, and one that theoretically gives us optimism that we can put the strengths of our car to the test and better take the fight to our rivals.

"Together with Honda we’re working hard to improve our reliability, and avoiding incurring grid penalties – especially on this track, where our car has the potential to perform more favourably – will be key to increasing our points tally, which we’re all so determined to achieve. On the back of a successful tyre test with Pirelli, we hope to continue this momentum with a strong result in Budapest and follow it with useful mileage during the post-race in-season test, which we’ll as a platform for further development in the second half of the season."


Yusuke Hasegawa

"Despite showing improved competitiveness during the last few races, we’re yet to translate this into on-track results. Having said that, we’re pleased with our current development and we now head to Hungary feeling more positive about the race weekend.

"The Hungaroring is a unique twisty circuit that should give us one of our best opportunities this season. Though it is not a power-oriented track, it still requires precise energy management throughout every lap of the race. It is also a track where overtaking is extremely difficult, so qualifying will be enormously important for us.

"We know we’re capable of a good result on this type of track, so our target is to reach Q3 and be in a good place to score points in the race. Fernando claimed his first Formula 1 victory at the Hungaroring, and Stoffel won there in GP2 in 2014, so our cars are in excellent hands.

"This is the last race before the summer shutdown when everyone in the McLaren-Honda team will get a well-earned rest. Before then, I hope we can build a good momentum towards the second half of the season with solid results in Hungary."

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Adam Cooper‏ @adamcooperF1

It's now official - Ron Dennis has been terminated...:

 

[4_Webber]

I meni je zao. Ali je zaista poslednjih godina poceo da povlaci pogresne poteze.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

To stoji, ali ovo je kraj jedne ere u F1. Jos se samo Ser Frenk drzi (koliko se drzi, i tamo vec godinama drugi vuku konce umesto njega), kao poslednji od likova tipa Enca Ferarija, Kolina Cepmena, Kena Tirela... O(p)staju samo korporativni zombiji, nema vise mesta za prave trkace.