836 replies to this topic

[alberto.ascari]

With due respect, nije ih bilo 50+ godina.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Pa dobro, ali nije to Red Bul koji je dosao niotkuda. Tradicija ipak postoji.

[DASUBO]

With due respect, nije ih bilo 50+ godina.

Zato što smo tako u mogućnosti. 😁

Da nije bilo one tragedije u Le Manu još biste bili trkački tim Alfe. 😎

Zgrožen sam ovim horor pričama iz Meklarena. Ni ja ne verujem da je moguća zamena pogona pre a tek pogotovu u toku sezone.
Msm, baš loše.

Meni je neverovatno da su podimenzionisali blok. Nešto je to drugo u pitanju...

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

https://www.jamesall...mclarens-shoes/
 

McLaren Honda F1 crisis: What would you do next in McLaren’s shoes?
Posted By: James Allen | 16 Mar 2017 | 4:40 pm GMT


There are increasing signs that McLaren Honda’s reliability and performance issues, which came to light in winter testing, are much more severe than at first realised and that it is time for some serious decisions to be made.

One option being considered is a switch of engine supplier – but what does that entail?

We have the answers below.

As well as simply getting a car to run quickly and without breaking down, there are many broader factors at play here in any decision on McLaren’s strategy, such as finance, engineering resource and long-term plan.

And there is also the question of Fernando Alonso. He has made it clear that he plans to stay in F1 beyond the end of 2017, he does not want his career to end on a down note, so McLaren’s Eric Boullier has told a leading Spanish media outlet that McLaren has to consider what steps to take to ensure it can keep him beyond the end of his current contract.

“I think Fernando is being honest with us, just as we’re being honest with him. He first wanted to see how the new car was. And how the new regulations are. And I think he likes the new F1. He wants to be competitive because he has talent to show the world and to himself,” the Frenchman told AS.

“And we need to be competitive to keep him happy. If we’re competitive he’ll be happy and if not he’ll take his own decisions…”
 
So what would you do in McLaren’s shoes?

There are three options:

1. Stick with Honda while they resolve their problems, but insist on a plan involving external assistance to ensure that they get a competitive product going forward.
Advantages: Continuity of $60m a year plus free engines, contribution to drivers salaries, stability, manufacturer support.
Disadvantage: 2017 campaign virtually a right-off, Alonso likely to leave, hard to sell sponsorship for 2018 against low level competitiveness and a negative story.

2. Activate a break clause at the end of 2017 or urge Honda to withdraw and appeal to the other manufacturers for a supply from 2018 onwards
Advantages: Continuity of funding, especially if Honda withdraws and pays-off the team, as it did with Brawn in 2008/9, time to develop a competitive 2018 package
Disadvantages: 2017 season a write-off, low points. Alonso may well look elsewhere.

3. Break with Honda and re-engineer the 2017 car around a new power unit
Advantages: Team would be likely to compete higher midfield from Spain onwards (after starting the season with Honda) and would probably score somewhere up to 100 points, better chance of retaining Alonso, better chance of selling sponsorship for 2018
Disadvantages: Huge engineering exercise requiring two months to optimise, expense and loss of financial support unless they leave funding as in clause 2, embarrassment for Honda, would expose any weaknesses in McLaren chassis. This could lead to Honda taking the rest of the year to develop the engine outside and come back in 2018 or withdraw from F1 if they feel they will not be able to get on top of F1 hybrid engine technology.

Either option 2 or 3 would be controversial, but it’s clear that something has gone fundamentally wrong in the trust and communication between McLaren and Honda and they cannot be ruled out.

At the launch of the MCL32, Honda’s Yusuke Hasegawa said that the 2017 Honda unit would be on the same level as the 2016 Mercedes.

“We have modified our engine with a much lower centre of gravity and lighter weight. However, it means we have a great challenge for the development, so I am very proud our team members have made a great job for this season. Of course we are not making any promises for this season, but our aim is to make the progress and catch up the frontrunners so that we keep pushing to make more progress.

“I don’t know how much gain Mercedes is hoping to make. But of course we are aiming to achieve the top level of the PU, which is Mercedes at this moment, but we don’t know how much power they are making now. But I am feeling that we are not behind from them (from start of 2016), but I think we will catch up with them at the beginning of the season.”

Given the reality as it was exposed in Barcelona testing from the outset, that it wasn’t even going to on the level Honda was at in 2016, it appears that Hasegawa wasn’t in possession of the full facts from his engineers in Japan about the engine and neither were the engineering staff at McLaren who liaise with Honda.

Trust is such a strange thing in an F1 team; it’s tough between team mates sometimes as we have seen with Vettel/ Webber and more recently Hamilton/Rosberg. But between a team and its engine partner it is fundamental.

So there will be some tough and frank conversations going on now about what happens next and it will be fascinating to see which way the partnership goes.

If they go for Option 2 or the ‘nuclear’ Option 3 then the team needs to adapt to a customer engine from one of the other manufacturers. The new rules say that one of the other manufacturers must supply them.

While McLaren and Ferrari have always been culturally estranged, Ferrari is well equipped to supply a new team having dropped Toro Rosso from its roster. They have enough people to staff that. Likewise Mercedes, after losing Manor from its customer roster.

Renault do not have as many people on staff, having gone from two supplies to three for 2017.

As for the engineering, although the rules say that the main mounting points have to be standard, it’s far more complex than that. Brawn famously engineered its 2009 car at late notice around a Mercedes engine and more recently Toro Rosso had a very late call to switch to Ferrari engines.
 
So here is what it takes to switch F1 engines.

Phase 1. Answer the big general questions: What are the heat rejection figures? How are the oil and water cooled and where do the pipes go? What is the cooling layout? Are there areas in the sidepods that need re-allocating? How does the rear suspension fit with the new engine? How does it connect to the gearbox?

Phase 2. Answer the physical questions: Where are the drives, the pump drives, the shafts coming out of the engine to the fuel pump, the ERS drive? Sometimes things are built into the back of the chassis, moulded around the oil tank design for example and if they are well out with the new unit it could mean a new chassis design. This could also mean having to re-homologate the chassis with the FIA and repass crash tests.

Phase 3. Electronics: The control unit for the battery can be placed quite differently for different power units. Some place them above the battery. The battery is around 30cm x 30cm with a depth of around 120mm and is located underneath the fuel tank, just behind the driver. Moving its control unit could be a real pain.

Phase 4. Finer details: How do the wiring looms run? Everything is as tightly packaged as possible under the skin of an F1 car and modifications can require revisions to the bodywork and that means valuable wind tunnel time. Gear ratios are another key consideration. They are set for the season based on power and torque numbers. But a new engine will have different numbers and this may require new ratios. Some take 10 weeks, others 4 weeks and are fabricated by outside suppliers.

In the case of McLaren going for Option 3 ideally you would like to have a month to do the redesign and manufacturing and another month to test it on a chassis dyno rig. But manufacturers are sensitive about rival manufacturer’s staff being around when these things are tested.

 

A new F1 car typically gets around 4,000km of testing at Barcelona before the season starts. So from the point at which you started running your new engine in the chassis, you’d have to allow at least that much running with the new package before you were confident of reliability.

 

That’s around 800 laps of a typical F1 circuit and would mean that the first four races after you relaunched would be challenging. So if you went for a change now, you’d be looking at racing from Spain onwards and then around Baku in June you would have a settled package. So that leaves 12 races to make the most of it. It’s a massive undertaking and a massive headache, especially during the season.

 

But they have a headache already. So what is the answer?

 

So what would you do in the circumstances?

[4_Webber]

Malo moje analzije... Meklaren je talac Honde. Denis se oslonio na njihovih 100 miliona dolara i zbog toga nije trazio sponzora. Rezultati su nam go kurac a izgleda da bi ova sezona na pocetku mogla da bude kao 2015. U doba kada kohorte saljivdzija sa interneta jedva cekaju da ismeju bilo kakav brend koji je poznat i da to "share-uju" po Fejsbuku i Tviteru i kace po Jutjubu, sto neprestano rade Meklarenu u poslednjih mesec dana (cuj u poslednjih mesec dana, u poslednje dve godine), koji bi generalni sponzor zeleo da se pojavi na bolidu F1 koji se tako cesto pojavljuje u negativnom kontekstu? Honda je opako fejlovala, malo su se popravili 2016, ali ocigledno im ovi novi koncepti ne idu od ruke. Meklaren sebi ne moze da priusti da 2017. bude kao 2015. Jednostavno ne moze. Sad Meklaren treba da zrtvuje 2017. i ceka da Honda dovede u red pouzdanost i doda 50-100 konja da bi mogli da budu 6. najbrzi tim u Melburnu 2018. godine. Ne mogu da kazem da je to pucanj u stopalo, to je skoro pa pucanj u stomak.

 

Zato, po mom misljenju, postoje samo dve opcije:

 

Prva opcija je da se Honda odmah odjebe posle Melburna u slucaju ponovljene trke iz Australije 2015. Siguran sam, ali siguran da ce se u interesu F1 naci kompromis da jedan od preostala 3 proizvodjaca motora, a jedina realna opcija je Mercedes, snabde Meklaren do kraja 2017, a da Zek Braun u toku godine radi na pronalazenju generalnog sponzora i da se dogovori sa Mercedesom, Ferarijem ili Renoom o snabdevanju za buducnost. Reno mi tu nekako izgleda najposteniji prema svojim "musterijama" od sva 3 proizvodjaca. Uostalom, Zek je zbog takvih stvari i doveden. Covek ima licno bogatstvo od 150 miliona dolara, njemu pare od Meklarena nisu potrebne, on je iskreni fan automoto sportova i Meklarena. Dosta se uzdam u njega. Sad ce neko reci, "a kako da se raskine ugovor sa Hondom a Meklaren ne plati monstruozno veliku odstetu Hondi za prevremeni raskid ugovora"? Pa eto, kao neko ko je u tom poslu, za jebeni najobicniji ugovor o zakupu se pravi 5, 6 klauzula koje omogucavaju prevremeni raskid ugovora zbog neispunjenja. Odbijam da poverujem da u jedan ugovor koji regulise odnos izmedju dva strane u kome se vrte stotine miliona dolara ne predvidja mogucnost prevremenog raskida ugovora zbog neispunjenja - u ovom slucaju bi to naravno bilo zbog neostvarivanja predvidjenih rezultata, ili kako to na engleskom kazu "performance clause in the contract". Ne verujem da su se dogovorili da ostvareni rezultat bude nebitan i da je samo bitno da Honda ulaze pare i snabdeva tim PU-ovima. Malo sutra.

Istovremeno, sumnjam da bi takozvana kraljevska porodica Bahreina koja ima 50% vlasnistva u Meklarenu imala problema da izgura tim finansijski vise nego sto su do sada. Ni bogatstvo Mensura Ozea nije za potcenjivanje.

 

Druga opcija je da se Hondi, u interesu sporta, dozvoli da u skorije vreme odradi jedan ili dva dodatna testa poput ovih u Barseloni i da im dozvole npr 2 PU vise bez kaznjavanja pod dodatnim izgovorom da su kasnije usli u F1, cime bi im dali sansu se se izvuku iz govana, da izvinite na izrazu. Sumnjam i da bi im to dozvolili, a i da bi oni umeli da se izvuku.

 

U postojanje neke trece, cetvrte ili pete opcije ne zelim da verujem, a to su sve varijacije na temu "radicemo zajedno na resavanju problema, verujemo u ovaj projekat, treba nam jos vremena bla bla bla". To je put koji ce za 2-3 godine dovesti do gasenja Meklarena, siguran sam u to.

 

Zato, glasam za opciju 1.

[staneC]

Ako če Mclaren sa Hondnim motorom u Austarliji biti na nivou testiranja, i ispostavi se, da je zajeb u kontrukciji žestok, Alonso odlazi.

 

Najbolja bi opcija bila, da Honda ode iz F1 do testiranja 2018 i vrti motore u Hondama po Japanu. Mclaren uzima Renaultov motor na godinu dana. Šejci odvrnu lavinu $, jer u suprotnom su u još večim...

Ako Honda 2018 u Barcelonu dovede motor kakav mora, vrača se u Mclaren, a ako ne, putuj igumane i Mclaren nastavlja sa Reanultom ili udružuje snage sa RedBullom i sami rade modifikovan Reanult motor.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Bahreinci ne zele da ulazu u Meklaren, vec da od njega zaradjuju. Zato ih je Mansur i uspeo okrenuti protiv Rona - njih dvojica su u licnoj svadji od pre nekog vremena, ranije je Ron mogao da racuna na njege prilikom glasanja da ce uvek biti na njegovoj strani ali sada je upravo on inicirao Ronovo smaknuce. Bahreinci ne zele da finansiraju tim, postavili su Ronu ultimatum ili ce da nadje sponzora pa da oni ne moraju vise da daju svoj novac, ili ce naci kupca koji ce od njih da otkupi deonice. Na kraju nije bilo nista od svega toga - Ron je s nekim Kinezima pregovarao da ce zajedno da otkupe deonice Bahreinaca (prakticno vrativsi Rona na 50% vlasnistva) ali se to izjalovilo i onda mu je Mansur zabo noz u ledja.

 

Ono sto Honda mora da shvati a izgleda da nije u stanju je da rok za dizajn motora nije petak u Melburnu, nije cak ni prvi dan testova u Barseloni, vec jedno 5-6 meseci pre toga. I onda testiraj, testiraj, testiraj, tako da onog momenta kada taj motor bude prvi put instaliran u F1 bolid on radi savrseno bez greske.

 

To da se Meklarenu dopusti dodatno testiranje ne moze da prodje, iz prostog razloga jer bi ostali timovi trazili isto za sebe.

 

Prelazak na drugog proizvodjaca bi zahtevao razvoj potpuno nove sasije (vidi gore sta Dzejms Alen kaze), i prakticno bi tek od Bakua eventualno pocelo da donosi rezultate. A dotle mozda Honda i proradi, pa na kraju bude isto. No, u svakom slucaju realna je opcija za 2018.

 

U svakom slucaju 2017. je vec sada otisla u rashod.

[Doorn]

Pa radila je Honda na dyno i na stolu, ali ih zeza G force. Pa jbmusve, stavi ga u centrifugu i vrti 

 

Edited by Doorn, 17 March 2017 - 12:54.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Ispostavilo se da nije radila ni na stolu, tojest nije radila dovljno dugo. Navodno su konstantno cackali i prckali oko dizajna do zadnjeg momenta i nisu imali vremena da testiraju.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

McLaren have not denied media speculation the British team is considering dumping its hapless works engine partner Honda.

With a dire test season now over, most observers agree that the once-great British team will enter the year faster only than Sauber.

The blame is being pinned squarely on Honda, who in three years have failed to produce a competitive engine for McLaren.

"McLaren are understood to be speaking to Mercedes about going back to using their engines," Ben Hunt, the correspondent for the Sun newspaper, said.

Another report, in Germany's Auto Bild, said McLaren shareholder Mansour Ojjeh has reached out personally to his old contacts at Daimler.

But Spain's El Confidencial quotes a source who claims Mercedes is not McLaren's only option, as "phones are running hot" in F1 circles at present.

However, McLaren's situation is complicated by the huge sponsorship deal that comes with the Honda partnership.

Former McLaren driver Martin Brundle is quoted by the Daily Mail: "They can't leave Honda unless Honda pull out and leave them a fat cheque like they did Brawn.

"They are very much integrated technically, financially and they have to work through it," he added.

Indeed, new McLaren executive Zak Brown insisted the Woking team "will honour our deal, as McLaren always does".

The media reports, however, insist that the initial contact between McLaren and Mercedes about an engine supply really did take place.

"What does the improvement that we need depend on?" El Confidencial quotes Fernando Alonso as having said last week. "It's going to depend on the big decisions that are taken at the highest level."

Mercedes would not comment, but a McLaren spokesman said: "Winter testing was challenging and disappointing.

"We are working with Honda to address shortcomings and deficiencies. Together with Honda we are considering options, but we will not comment on media speculation."

 

Znaci izvor "vesti" su tabloidi u Britaniji, Nemackoj i Spaniji.

 

Sto rece Brandl, a Braun potvrdio - jednostrano raskidanje ugovora jednostavno nije opcija za Meklaren, jedino da se Honda povuce i da plati Meklarenu kao Bronu onomad.

 

Okreni, obrni, mi smo sa Hondom zaglavili...

[leone]

Ono sto je meni potpuno neshvatljivo da Honda za 4 godine (valjda su poceli godinu prije samog ulaska) ne moze / umije da proizvede motor koji ne mora da bude najbolji / najbrzi ali da je relativno pouzdan i da ne zaostaje mnogo.

 

Proslu godinu tretitaju kao napredak, ono jes u odnosu na prijedhodnu, a zamijenili su na desetine motora u toku godine kad je dozvoljeno samo 5!! Prva i osnovna stvar pouzdanost, dzabe ti i brzina i sve ostalo, poeni se dobijaju samo na zavrsetku trke.

 

I onda ove godine potpuno nov koncept, s kako izgleda jos gorim fundamentalnim problemom, tapkanje u mraku, skrivanje tehnickih podataka od MCL...

 

Kako je krenulo vodi se trka izmedju Honde i MCL, ko moze vise da izdrzi u gubitku novca i ugleda pa da prvi prekine saradnju.

Edited by leone, 17 March 2017 - 17:18.

[/13/Ален Шмит/]

McLaren is considering entering Formula E as a team or a supplier of powertrain technology.

The British company's Applied Technologies arm will supply the electric single-seater series' control battery from the 2018/19 season.

It supplied motors and inverters to all teams in the inaugural campaign.

New McLaren boss Zak Brown told Autosport he wanted greater technological involvement in the series "in some way, shape or form" but did not outline specifically what that would entail.

"It's great that we're able to demonstrate that we're taking a leadership role and showing our competency there," Brown added.

"We are looking at ways to get more involved in Formula E.

"Everything is on the table from starting a team, to buying a team, to working with a team to further developing other areas within Formula E that McLaren [could] apply technology.

"We can go beyond the battery technology."

If McLaren intends to supply powertrains in Formula E at the next available opportunity - 2018/19 - it will have had to submit its registration last month.

Speaking before this process closed, Brown reiterated the series was becoming difficult to ignore.

"Formula E is going places," he said. "It has its place in motorsport and being the motor racing junkie I am, as long as it's commercially viable and on brand, the more range the better."

Formula E is in its third season, and has attracted manufacturer involvement from Jaguar, Renault, Audi, BMW and DS, as well as lesser-known and emerging brands like Mahindra, NextEV and Venturi.

Audi will enter as a fully-fledged works entry next season while BMW, which is currently a technical partner to the Andretti team, is understood to have registered to be a powertrain manufacturer in its own right from 2018/19.

Formula 1 world champion team Mercedes secured an option to enter the series in 2018/19 but it is not known if it has followed through with this.

 

Meklaren beži u Formulu E s Alonsom i Batonom u postavi. Fandorn i de Fris u F1 postavu (Macušita test vozač). /s

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

The new Honda engine, featuring a revised architecture and new combustion technology, lacks power to such a degree that it is currently weaker than the 2016 unit. Current estimates suggest Honda's deficit to Mercedes has increased from 80bhp at the end of last year to something approaching 120bhp, which is not far short of running without use of the MGU-K.

Honda made great strides developing its energy recovery systems in 2016, but its new 2017 'Melbourne-spec' combustion engine was so unstable during the second Barcelona test that it literally shook itself to death. When the severe vibrations weren't causing electrical failures, the ignition systems were detonating the engine at low revs.

 

Ako je ovo istina, nek nam je Sv. Aerton na pomoci u Melburnu!

[stex]

Još ne mogu da verujem da je Honda takav raspad! Živeo sam u ubeđenju da će da se bore za min 4. mesto u šampionatu.

U čemu je fora? Suviše koksa, sake, gejše?

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Ma jok bre, nema tu nikakve fore, jednostavno interesi Meklarena kao tima i Honde kao kompanije se ne poklapaju i to je to.

 

Meklarenu je interes da osvoji sto veci broj bodova i sto bolju poziciju na tabeli, sada i odmah.

 

Hondi je u interesu da na kraju svog biznis-ciklusa ima sto jaci motor, trenutni rezultati su u ovom momentu apsolutno nevazni.

 

I jednima i drugima je konacni cilj da pobedjuju i osvajaju titule, ali ne nuzno zajedno.

 

Hondini inzenjeri konstantno cackaju oko motora i menjaju i isprobavaju nova resenja, prakticno bez testiranja. Njima su trkacki vikendi testiranje a cilj je da na zadnjoj trci u Abudabiju imaju motor koji ce biti tu negde blizu Mercedesa. Bodovi koje usput pokupe (ako pokupe) su cisti bonus, oni im nisu niti motivacija niti su esencijalni za vrednovanje njihovog uspeha.

 

Isto tako su radili i 80-tih, kada su sa Vilijamsom razvijali motor nekoliko sezona, mucili se sa pouzdanoscu i onda konacno kad je taj motor postao dobar preskocili kod Meklarena i izdominirali.