687 replies to this topic

[alpiner]

Renault wants F1 fuel limit scrapped

Renault managing director Cyril Abiteboul has called for the abolition of Formula 1's current fuel-capacity limit, believing it is "destroying" the positive messages regarding the power unit technology.

While the 1.6-litre V6 turbocharged hybrid systems are restricted to a fuel-flow rate of 100kg per hour, they are also not allowed to use more than 100kg of fuel during a grand prix.

Discussions over whether to scrap that limit are ongoing but there are differences of opinion, with Mercedes against the proposal while Renault is for it.

Explaining Renault's standpoint, Abiteboul said: "I am a big fan of making sure F1 remains F1. We should not lean towards endurance.

"One of the things that has put F1 in danger, or could be another threat to F1, is if we try to combine F1 and endurance.

"Endurance is about efficiency, sustainability, the capacity to run very long distances without any issues.

F1 is about short races, usually being able to attack constantly. "Frankly, even in the V8 era there was some fuel management.

It was part of the tactics, to maximise, to optimise your laptime for the duration of the race from a team strategy perspective.

"It has always been part of F1, without any form of limitation on fuel quantity, so I would remove completely the fuel quantity [regulation].

" The belief is removing the fuel-capacity limit would enable drivers to push more often and for longer, avoiding entering the highly-criticised fuel-saving mode.

"We would see it [removing the regulation] would take all the negativity away from the message regarding this new technology, which is fantastic.

We've done an amazing job," added Abiteboul. "With the engine we use, all the manufacturers - Mercedes in particular - should be given credit for the technology they have been able to introduce, reducing fuel consumption by 30-40 per cent.

"It is just amazing, but this fantastic message is being destroyed by the fact with this fuel limit we are making people believe it is only about managing fuel."

Abiteboul still believes the fuel-flow limitation is "important", and should remain in place to avoid concerns over a potential "arms race" with regard to development.

"You need to also make sure you don't create artificial ways of using the electric motors by burning fuel," added Abiteboul.

"That would be completely opposite to the message we are sending. Fuel flow is sufficient enough, but we don't need a limit on fuel quantity."

Whether a consensus can be reached remains to be seen, but Abiteboul believes the difference in opinion is healthy.

"It's the perfect example that shows we [the engine manufacturers] don't control the sport through engine regulations," said Abiteboul.

"We will always have little disagreements. I have expressed my opinion, Toto [Wolff, Mercedes motorsport boss] has expressed his.

That's apparent, and there will be a vote."

http://www.eurosport...76/story.shtml?

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Jok.

 

Ukinuti ogranicenje protoka goriva, ali jos dodatno smanjiti ukupnu kolicinu raspolozivog goriva za trku na ~90 kg. Ukinuti ogranicenja za struju (koliko generises toliko trosis) i ukinuti DRS zone - pokretna aerodinamika i na prednjim i na zadnjim krilima koja se slobodno koristi tokom celog kruga bez obzira na medjusobna rastojanja itd. Dozvoliti mesanje smesa guma (razlicite gume na svakom tocku) i ukinuti obavezno koristenje setova iz kvalifikacija, razlicitih guma itd (prakticno omoguciti kome zeli da vozi trku bez pit stopa).

 

Pa kom obojci Tom i Dzeri.

[Downforce]

Jok.

 

Ukinuti ogranicenje protoka goriva, ali jos dodatno smanjiti ukupnu kolicinu raspolozivog goriva za trku na ~90 kg.

 

A jeeeeste...najbolje da ih guraju po stazi

 

NemO da me nerviras

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Ako ukinu sva ogranicenja za kapacitet stornirane i generisane elektricne energije onda smanjenje kapaciteta goriva od 10% nije uopste neizvodljivo, i to bez ikakvog smanjenja performansi. Jos uvek ima puno prostora za razvoj hibridne komponente pogona i mislim da se treba fokusirati na tu stranu.

 

Sa druge strane, ukidanje ogranicenja protoka bi omogucilo povecanje "peak" performansi i mapiranje motora za kvalifikacije (i odredjene situacije u trci kada stednja njije prioritet) gde bi se rusili rekordi staza.

 

Sto bi sve zajedno zadovoljilo i proizvodjace zeljne prikazivanja svojih vrhunskih tehnologija i publiku zeljnu brzinskih rekorda.

 

Jedino bi Berni ostao nesrecan.

[alpiner]

Mercedes' data shows Toro Rosso has least powerful engine in F1

Toro Rosso's year-old power unit is the least powerful engine on the grid, according to Mercedes' data.

Toro Rosso is the only team running a 2015 power unit this year, with all the other outfits benefitting from upgrades from their engine manufacturers over the winter. Much of Toro Rosso's impressive start to the year has been attributed to its Ferrari power unit having more power than Renault and Honda, but data gathered from GPS readings by Mercedes suggests all the 2016 power units are already ahead of the year-old Ferrari.

"You may not know this, but the engine with the least power on the grid is actually the Ferrari in the Toro Rosso," Mercedes technical boss Paddy Lowe told ESPN. "The Renault and the Honda are not so far behind the Ferrari Mercedes, so there is not a lot of difference now between the power units."

The current engine formula is based around efficiency, with manufacturers tasked with extracting as much power as possible from the restricted 100kg/hour flow rate of fuel to the engine. Mercedes has recently trumpeted its achievement of utilising more than 45 percent of the potential energy in the fuel, compared to 29 percent in the V8 era, but Lowe says rival manufacturers are not only a couple of percent behind at most.

"Even the worst engines in Formula One, and people complain like hell about them, are still fantastically efficient by any absolute standard. They just happen to be one or two percent worse than the best engines."

The news also underlines the remarkable job Toro Rosso has managed with its car this year after Max Verstappen finished sixth in last weekend's Bahrain Grand Prix. The Bahrain International Circuit is a power sensitive circuit where fuel usage is critical, but Toro Rosso still managed to hold off more powerful opposition.

After qualifying in Bahrain, Verstappen said he could see a big difference between his car's power output and that of the 2016-spec engine.

"If you are behind a factory Ferrari you can see that they have more power, yeah. But we have to be happy with what we have because it's very reliable and for us that is a good start."

http://www.espn.co.u...erful-engine-f1

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Hm, cisto sumnjam. Pre ce biti da Mercedes pokusava da se opere pred Bernijem i da sakrije koliku zaista prednost imaju. Jer ako je ovo istina, na osnovu rezultata koje STR ostvaruje sa takvim motorom to bi znacilo da imaju ubedljivo najbolju sasiju na gridu. A znamo da je to nemoguce, jer su morali da idu u kompromise i na brzinu se prilagodjavaju Ferariju nakon promene motora u zadnji cas.

[4_Webber]

Da, potpuno se slazem. Odavno vecu nebulozu nisam video. Posebno sto oni imaju Ferarijevu specifikaciju motora iz novembra 2015.

Edited by 4_Webber, 06 April 2016 - 07:09.

[alpiner]

Max Verstappen finished sixth for Toro Rosso in Bahrain, highlighting the strengths of the chassis. Verstappen himself said during the race weekend that Red Bull's Renault power unit has improved markedly over the winter.

 

"To be honest I'm not really surprised," Verstappen said when asked about Red Bull's performance on a power-sensitive track in Bahrain. "They have a great car, I knew that already. With the engine they made a big step forward."

[alpiner]

Insight: how Mercedes supplies its customer Formula 1 teams with engines

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

F1’s Bernie Ecclestone claims 2017 engine-related rules could be ‘torn up’
Giles Richards in Sochi
Sunday 1 May 2016 10.52 BST

• Ecclestone says if new regulations fail ‘we could start again with a new set’
• Changes set to come in for 2017-2020 despite criticism from drivers and teams

The Formula One chief executive, Bernie Ecclestone, has warned that the new regulations set to be implemented in 2017, with the engine-related rules ratified only on Friday, may be “torn up” should they not work as hoped in producing better racing.

The FIA announced on Friday that the new rules had been ratified by the World Motor Sport Council and would cover the 2017-2020 period. “The global agreement on power units covers four key areas relating to the cost and supply price, obligation to supply, performance convergence and the sound of the power units,” the statement read.

The implementation of the new regulations has been a long and torturous process, with the aero rules agreed earlier in the year, still provoking controversy. The latter looking to make cars faster and more aggressive-looking have been criticised by drivers and teams for their potential to inhibit overtaking. Yet Ecclestone, speaking in the paddock, has suggested that they may yet be changed again.

Ecclestone stressed the key part of the new rules was ensuring a convergence in engine power and that the customer engines matched those of the manufacturers. Should that not be the case, he warned: “That will all be torn up and we will start again with a new set of regulations, where the engines might be easier. The normally aspirated engines that we had were more or less equal, there were little differences, they had reached the maximum. It is just a case of bolting the hybrid stuff on and that’s where the problems would start.”

Ecclestone, in fact, has no power to independently rewrite the regulations, with any changes required to be agreed by the FIA, Formula One Management, the F1 strategy group, the F1 commission and the WMSC.

 

Dobro, znaci F1 bez Mercedesa, Ferarija, Renoa i Honde. Valjda ce tako RBR biti u stanju da pobedi, da ih vise ne slusamo kako kukaju, i valjda ce tako Bernijev mezimac Kristijan Horner biti srecan...

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Teams will have to make some parts of their power unit last for half a season from the 2018 championship.

Drivers will be allowed only two MGU-Ks, control electrics and energy stores for the 2018 season and will receive penalties if they use more. If the calendar remains the same length it will require some power unit elements to last for eleven races instead of the current five.

Each driver will be allowed a maximum of three engines, MGU-Hs and turbochargers before receiving penalties, which if the calendar remains 21 races long will require each component to last for seven events.

If a new power unit manufacturer enters the sport each of its drivers will be permitted to use an extra one of each elements, a dispensation which was introduced for Honda last year.

The tighter restriction on power units is intended to help bring down the cost of competition. Prices will be limited in 2017 and in 2018 the price reduced per power unit for a new customer team will be set at €12 million (£9.49m).

[Downforce]

Ovo je skroz besmisleno.

[staneC]

Problem previše pravila rešavaju sa još više pravila...

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Formula 1's fuel limit has been increased by 5kg (11 pounds) to 105kg (231.485) in the latest draft of the 2017 sporting regulations, but opinion is divided on if the change is a good one.

The limit has increased because next year's cars will be faster and heavier, and with the bigger wings and tires, will use more fuel.

In an attempt to reduce the need of fuel saving, which teams have to do at certain points this season, an increase has been agreed upon.

It was voted through the F1 Commission, but Mercedes boss Toto Wolff has revealed that Mercedes-powered teams – the works outfit, Williams, Force India and Manor – all voted against.

"[Williams deputy team principal] Claire [Williams] brought it to the point in the meeting itself that the whole world is looking to reduce emissions," said Wolff. "This is what is happening out there. Can we possibly out of the sheer principle vote in favor of an increased fuel allowance from 100kg (220.462) to 105kg?

"If the sport needs it, it's fair enough to do it but as a principle we have decided we won't go there, we will say no. We knew before that it would be the only four votes against [the Mercedes teams] it and that is a lost case."

When the 1.6-liter V6 turbo hybrids were introduced, the aim was to improve road relevance, increase efficiency and reduce emissions.

Force India chief operating officer Otmar Szafnauer believes there needs to be a push to reduce the amount of fuel used in races.

"These hybrid power trains were introduced with goal of, or an intent, of reducing the amount of fuel that we use over time," he said. "Yes, although the cars will be a bit draggier, if the fuel limit stays the same, then effectively it is like reducing it over time. But I still think we should look at doing just that and over time reducing the amount of fuel we use just to complement the philosophy that we had when all this was introduced."

Toro Rosso technical director James Key agreed with Szafnauer and added it is crucial changes to the regulations are compatible with the current technology.

"In the longer term it's always a good thing to target ever more efficiency," he said. "These power units are incredibly efficient now anyway, they are really extraordinary things. These engines were designed around a given chassis and a given aerodynamic set-up; in fact for that matter, a given tire design and we've now changed that and you've got to make sure that your power unit and the way you use it is compatible with your chassis design.

"So if we do need to squeeze a little bit more just to ensure that races don't become fuel-saving events, then that's probably the right thing for the sport, but certainly in a longer term we need to look for continued efficiencies as we go down the line."

Should any driver exceed the fuel limit, other than in cases of force majeure, over the course of the race, the regulations say they will be excluded from the results.