687 replies to this topic

[leone]

Lud zbunjenog:
 

 

Ne tako davno Ferari je bio najglasniji protivnik V6 turbo hibrida (barem medju proizvodjacima - medju timovima to je konstantno RBR), kao njih ne zanimaju ni struja ni turbo vec samo veliki atmosferski motori, a evo sada kad im je konacno proradio motor okrecu curak naopako i sada bas oni ne daju da se odstupi od hibridne tehnologije.

 

Nemojte me pogresno shvatiti, mislim da je greska ponovno menjanje pravila oko motora jer taman smo poceli da vidimo sustizanje medju proizvodjacima i ako se sada promene pravila samo cemo ponovo dobiti dominaciju jednog proizvodjaca dok se ostali ne snadju. Ono sto treba F1 je ogranicavanje cene po kojoj proizvodjaci moraju da prodaju motore svojim klijentima, a ne novo bacanje para na razvoj potpuno drugacijih motora.

 

 

Jeste Ferrari bio protivnik elektricnih bolida, struje itd. ali vrlo ubrzano se od strane veoma uticajnih drzava najavljuje zakonska regulativa koja ce za 20/30 godina zabraniti ili drasticno smanjiti proizvodnju vozila na sagorivanje, tako da je Marchionne tu neko ko mora da prati te trendove ili zatvori fabriku. Trece opcije nema.

 

Fino covjek kaze: "Either we do something clever and consistent with the development or we forget it. These easy solutions to remove the hybrid parts of the engine, or to bring back the 12 cylinder aspirated engines, are in the past," Marchionne added.

[/13/Ален Шмит/]

Zanimljiv osvrt na komparaciju razvoja PJ počev od VN VB prošle godine na VN Australije do VN Mađarske:

 

 

 

[Downforce]

Jako sam skeptican prema svim ovim dijagramima...

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Mercedes is close to to producing a Formula 1 engine that can deliver a power output of 1000bhp, according to its engine boss Andy Cowell.

Mercedes has dominated F1's V6 turbo hybrid era, clinching four successive double world championships.

Power unit development has been such that in 2016 Cowell said Mercedes had exceeded 900bhp and now says it is on course to break the 1000bhp barrier.

"We're close," Cowell told Autosport. "I'm sure that'll happen at some point."

This year, Mercedes' engine hit a landmark achievement on the dyno when it broke the 50% thermal efficiency barrier for the first time.

Its progress is thought to have made its M08 EQ Power+ the most efficient racing engine ever.

Thermal efficiency, which is calculated on the amount of useful energy that can be produced from a given amount of heat input, has become a key focus for modern engine builders.

In F1, it is particularly important because of the strict fuel-flow limit rate of 100kg/hour.

When asked how long it will take until 50% thermal efficiency is transferred from the dyno to the track, Cowell said: "It's an answer for the early part of the next year.

"We need to see how the power unit development goes through the winter and our prove-out goes through the winter, and it's a balance with the car as well.

"There are engines running on the dyno - that's one thing.

"When you go to total car lap time, that's the bit where there's work being done to improve the technology on the car to enhance both aerodynamic and power unit performance.

"Let's see how it all works out."

Mercedes' first turbo-hybrid engine, introduced in 2014, had an efficiency rate of 44%.

 

Ne tako davno, verovalo se da motori u praksi ne mogu preko 30% termicke efikasnosti (najefikasniji su bili na nessto preko 20%). Evo sada probijamo 50%, i to proizvodeci 1000 KS iz 1,6 l zapremine sa protokom goriva ogranicenim na 100 kg/h.

 

A ljudi progutali Bernijevu propagandu o "ustrojenim" motorima.

 

Ovi sadasnji motori su apsolutno neverovatni, F1 bolidi nikada u istoriji nisu bili brzi (ogranicavaju ih jedino gume), a mi slusamo kuknjavu o "dosadnim" motorima, vozacima taksistima, nedostatku buke i slicne nebuloze.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

FIA president Jean Todt has resurrected the idea of a 'global engine' that could be used in both Formula 1 and other motorsport series.

The concept was previously proposed in the late 2000s, when the FIA commissioned British engineering consultancy Ricardo to investigate the potential for a common rules package to create a base engine that could be adapted for use in as many as 11 major series around the world.

The 2009 report proposed that championships ranging from F1 and IndyCar to single-seater ladder categories, rallying, touring cars and prototype sportscars could use versions of the same engine, but the concept fizzled out amid concerns over cost and practicality from the targeted championships and manufacturers.

But with huge investment needed to produce engines for the current hybrid F1 regulations, Todt suggested reviving the global rules concept could be attractive.

"Probably what we should say, which is not easy as well, is could we use this [F1] engine in other categories of motorsport?" he said.

"At the moment each category of motorsport has its own single regulations, so probably we should try to see if we can have some synergies."

Todt highlighted the World Endurance Championship's LMP1 class as a candidate for sharing engine rules with F1, saying grand prix racing's move towards longer-life engines made it more practical for its technology to be used in long-distance sportscar racing too.

"We have the endurance championship with LMP1," said Todt.

"We have completely different engines, so would it make sense to anticipate a future for the endurance championship using this synergy - which incidentally is covering the same kind of mileage."

The WEC is currently assessing options for future rules packages as it reacts to Porsche and Audi's departures from LMP1.

Though a move towards road-car styling has been mooted for 2020/21, a major change in engine philosophy is considered unlikely as privateers have been promised rules stability.

Motorsport.com understands that Todt's 'global engine' idea has not so far been formally suggested to LMP1 teams.

F1 and top-level sportscar racing's last attempt to share engine technology proved ill-fated, when Group C's move towards F1's 3.5-litre engines led to the decline and eventual demise of the World Sportscar Championship ahead of the 1993 season.

 

Ideja da se isti ili slicni motori mogu koristiti u vise razlicitih kategorija je dobra sa stanovista da moze da pruzi veci izbor snabdevaca i time pruzi priliku za upliv sveze krvi i novih ideja, ali ako su specifikacije pogresno odabrane moze da ima i katastrofalne posledice, da podigne cene i otera sve proizvodjace. Meni se cini da se ovome pristupa pomalo naopako, i umesto pokusaja da se napravi jedan motor koji ce onda (uz male varijacije) biti nametnut svima da bi mozda trebalo pokusati sa legalizacijom motora vrlo razlicitih konfiguracija iz razlicitih serija za vise od jedne serije. Zasto ne bi u F1 bili legalni i Indikar motori (da zanemarimo za trenutak cinjenicu da im fali 250-tak konja da budu konkurentni) uz ove sadasnje F1 motore? Zasto ne bi ovi sadasnji F1 motori ovakvi kakvi su bili legalni u WEC uz tamo vec postojece motore? I tome slicno.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Cosworth admits it is "unlikely" to return to Formula 1 as an independent engine supplier, and needs external backing to come back for the new engine regulations.

 

U prevodu - dzaba ste krecili...

[alpiner]

Renault calls for F1 engine freeze in 2019-20

Renault has called for a freeze on F1 engine development during the interim 2019-2020 seasons before new regulations are introduced.
The manufacturer believes that such a move would allow the four current suppliers to focus fully on preparing for the new regulations, and thus not hand an advantage to any new entrants who can devote all their resources to the 2021 projects.
Renault customer Red Bull believes that a way should be found to equate engines for the last two years of the current formula, in order to generate more competitive racing.
Renault Sport F1 boss Cyril Abiteboul made it clear that he wants a freeze to be part of the future rules package proposals that Liberty Media will reveal in full to teams on the weekend of the Bahrain GP.
"The one thing we will not want to do is to have the burden of developing two engines in parallel," he told Motorsport.com.
"That's one thing that is sure, but it's too early to talk about the technicalities of the way achieve that.
"There are two things basically in our key message and our position at Renault. First before committing to a regulation, we need to understand the bigger picture.
"And secondly we don't see it's acceptable or sustainable to have to work on two engines in parallel at the same time, for the simple reason that if there was to be a new entrant, which is what we wish, he will have a fantastic advantage in being able to focus on the future, and not to have to worry about the present and the customers, and so and so forth.
"I'm just discussing principles which I think are logical, and fair for the next steps."
Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko believes that the FIA should try to equalise engine performance for the last two years of the current formula.
"If new engine rules are coming which we hope should be announced pretty soon, than we have to freeze the engines as they are now," Marko told Motorsport.com.
"And there should be a rule that every engine has to be within three percent, and that is to be properly fulfilled.
"Then we can live until 2020. Nobody has to make development on these engines, and that's the way to go."
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner argued that even if power levels were more equal, the current pace-setting manufacturers could still have an advantage on consumption, and hence fuel weight.
"I think an ideal world if you want manufacturers to get involved in a new engine for 2021, and not have them incur large development costs between now and then, some form of BOP – Balance of Power – ideally through fuel flow, could be a sensible route," he told Motorsport.com.
"That way obviously those that have done a better job would retain an advantage because they would use less fuel, and would be starting the race with a lighter car. But the power could create more interesting races."

https://www.motorspo...20-1020042/?s=1

 

Koliko vidim ne traže uravnilovku, ali kako će to izgledati sa Hondom? Rendža možda i ima neke šanse da zaostatak smanji na prihvatljivu meru, ali Honda je svetlosnu godinu iza

Edited by alpiner, 29 March 2018 - 22:29.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Honda je svakako prdnula u cabar, sa zamrzavanjem razvoja ili bez. Njihova jedina nada za priljnucak je da pogode motor pod novom specifikacijom, sa ovim pravilima sanse su im minimalne.

[alpiner]

Saward:

 

https://www.motorspo...logsf1/id/00193

 

 

 

If all goes to plan Aston Martin will have an engine of its own in 2021. The company cannot really afford to do its own thing, but it can work with other interested parties to create a base engine which they can all then go their separate ways with. I hope that the rumoured Aston Martin/McLaren/Cosworth consortium (in whatever form it takes) will go ahead and that we will also see other F1 engine “platforms” emerging once the engine rules for 2021 are known. 

Edited by alpiner, 30 March 2018 - 15:36.

[Rad-oh-yeah?]

Restrictions on F1 engine performance will be eased under proposed changes to the formula from 2021 designed to allow drivers to push flat-out all the time.

The FIA confirmed its proposed 2021 engine following a meeting of the Formula One Strategy Group and F1 Commission in Paris today. As previously indicated F1 will use a 1.6-litre V6 turbo hybrid but will drop the MGU-H, which recovers energy from waste heat. The plans announced today are based on the Paris Proposal which was presented in October last year.

RaceFans has learned further details of the proposal for F1’s 2021 engine regulations. These include an increased rev limit, which will rise from 15,000rpm to 18,000rpm. The fuel flow rate, currently limited to 100kg per hour, will also be removed in 2021.

These two changes are likely to lead to a significant increase in the race start weight of F1 cars. They could have to carry as much as 50kg more fuel meaning they will start races weighing over 960kg unless in-race refuelling, which has been banned since 2010, is permitted again.

RaceFans also understands F1 intends to review limits on how many engine components drivers may use during a season and the penalties associated with him, following complaints from fans.

Among its other goals for the 2021 engine are to reduce unit costs for customers. Beyond 2021 measures are being considered to correct variations in performance between engines.

The FIA intends to finalise the 2021 engine regulations by the end of next month.

[romantik]

Konacno malo razumnih predloga. Dosta bre taksiranja!

[alpiner]

Renault has indicated that it's not ready to give up on developing the MGU-H, the component of the F1 power unit that recovers energy from heat which builds up in the car.

Formula 1's new owners have proposed dumping the MGU-H as part of the overhaul of the engine specification in 2021. Cutting costs, levelling the playing field and improving reliability are among the reasons cited for the move.

But Renault for one says that it regrets the decision. The French manufacturer's engine technical director Remi Taffin said the company will continue to work on the technology despite the decision.

"We are trying to have good discussions to go forward for keeping developing this power unit in a different way," he told Motorsport.com this week.

"We did a lot of work on the MGU-H," he added. "It's working, it's a very nice part. It's not something we will put on the shelf and forget.

While the MGU-H might not have a role to play in the future of F1, Taffin said there were "alternatives" where the technology could still be put to good use.

"We have other projects," he pointed out. "We have Formula E.

"The MGU-H is not directly translatable but it's a high-speed motor," he explained. It's quite a unique technology. We're not going to put that on the shelf.

"We wish to go forwards. We are still interested in developing the engine. We think the engine is a big part of Formula 1.

"We are all discussing this, we want to get this forward. We know we have some work to do. We know we will have some changes compared to today and we have to deal with them.

"But the most important thing for Renault is that we all work together with the FIA and F1, to get this right and yes, to make sure that the engines keep a good part in Formula 1."

Other F1 manufacturers have also indicated that they also support the continued development of the thermal energy recovery system.

"We will miss the MGU-H," admitted Honda's Toyoharu Tanabe. "Such a high pinnacle of technology for the future and relevant to the production car as well.

"I think we haven’t decided everything yet for 2021" he added. "But the direction from the FIA we respect, we respect the other manufacturers’ direction, but we think we will miss the MGU-H."

"The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," added Andy Cowell, managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains. "It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work."

The unit reportedly provides more than half the power necessary for the operation of the MGU-K, the system that recovers kinetic energy from the car when it brakes.

"To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step," continued Cowell. "It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done.

"We will all now start developing anti-lag systems. The MGU-H is the most marvellous anti-lag system on a turbocharged engine because it gives you speed control.

"That’s been removed so we’ll now have to come up with various devices and systems and that will probably involve burning some fuel in the exhaust which doesn’t feel like the most honourable thing to do, as an engineer.

"But, as I’ve said previously, it’s a balance between technology and entertainment. We’ve got to get that balance right."

 

Idemo korak unazad zbog ljudske gluposti... 

 

Onaj smrad Horny je sa ekipom iz RB-a napunio budalama uši kako mgu-h nema nikakve veze sa automobilima, kako je tehnologija preskupa i nepouzdana... a on se u dizajn motora razume k'o Mara u kriv qrac. Kada čuješ inženjere vidiš da je priča naravno drugačija. Pazi budalu nepouzdani?! Treba celu sezonu da voze sa jednim motorom? Svaku novu ideju tokom sezone da plaćaju penalizacijom? Pa onda ona njegova proseravanja kako bi on lično da se vrati V12... povraća mi se od ljigavca, pertle mu samo vire iz seljačkog dupeta. Umesto da primenimo 30% obnovljive energije ajde da glancamo opet metal do iznemoglosti i to ćemo nazvati razvoj(ovo smo imali na kraju V8 ere).To je duh F1? Sajdžije?

 

Dietrich bi da pravi motore i postane Enzo pa je pustio džukca Hornija da laje i vuče priču na njegovu stranu. Džukac se nakitio peharima oženio pevaljku Spajsicu kita mu najveća u padoku sve zna, u sve se razume i svakoga može da uvredi. RB su kao apsolutni kraljevi medijskog prostora u F1 izgurali njihovu priču uz plodno tlo kod ljudi koji nisu mogli da podnesu nečije pobede, svoje poraze  i evo nas korak nazad. Ovo je bruka u kojoj su uz demagošku parolu Glasnije-Brže-Jeftinije dva glupa opet nadglasala jednog pametnog 

 

Čekaću ako treba godinama da prorade Rendža i McLaren samo govnarima što pre da vidim leđa. 

Edited by alpiner, 11 May 2018 - 19:35.

[Downforce]

Jos kada je pokrenuta prica o novim motorima znao sam da cemo doci u ovu situaciju.

 

Znao sam da cemo izgubiti zvuk, doci u situaciju da jedan proizvodjac ubode dizajn, da ga onda ostali nece lako stici zbog limitiranog broja motora, da ce neko katastrofalno pogresiti u razvoju, da ce sve to biti jako skupo, da niko nov ni u ludilu nece uci u F1 sa svojim motorom, da ce limit protoka goriva i kolicine za celu trku biti problem...

 

Sve smo to prosli i dosli u sitaciju da opet imamo fantasticne masine u svakom mogucem smislu uprkos svim tim stvarima koje su se izdesavale. I od svega, bas taj jedan sklop koji i jeste bio poenta cele price i svih tih dostignuca (MGU-H) cemo da ukinemo. Svakom proizvodjacu je ovo maltene kljucna tehnologija zbog koje se uopste i baktase sa svime.

 

I opet iste ideje vajnih marketing prodavaca magle...pojeftinjenje, poboljsanje iskustva i ugodjaja publike...mijumijumiju...

 

Nazadovanje u svakom smislu. Ako smo vec formirali ideju o "ekoloskijoj"(i dalje mislim da je ovo budalastina samo po sebi, ali ajd...moramo promovisati prave stvari cak i na ovako glup nacin) F1, vracanje u kameno doba vise stvarno nema smisla. Narocito sto ce to jaaaaako mnogo da kosta i kostalo je. Plus i ovi koji su do sada ulagali pare apsolutno vise nemaju sta novo da nauce tu. Mercedes, Reno i Honda automatski imaju samo gubitak u celoj prici. Ferrari bas briga u celoj prici, oni su tu totalno nebitni u tom smislu mada ni oni nisu srecni sve ispocetka da razvijaju. Niko ne voli da trosi pare i da krece od nule.