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Am I right?


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Poll: Sta mislite o Daniel-u Dennett-u? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Sta mislite o Daniel-u Dennett-u?

  1. ko je to? (14 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. cuo sam za njega ali nisam nista citao (5 votes [23.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.81%

  3. procitao sam jednu knjigu, nije me se nesto dojmila (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. poznajem njegov rad - u njemu postoje brojne teskoce (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. poznajem njegov rad - rec je o solidnom filozofu (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. dennett's personal slave is my idea of a perfect job (2 votes [9.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.52%

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#1 Sioran

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 22:20

nekima od vas je poznat moj stav da su svi geniji naduvani, to jest da svoju popularnost dobrim delom crpe na racun nepoznatih stvaralaca bez cijih njihovo delo ne bi bilo moguce.

e sad: na ovom mestu ja bih rado da razgovaram o delu jednog po meni velikog coveka - daniela dennetta - ali se plasim da nemam s kim. verujem da mnogi od vas nisu nikad culi za njega, a medju onima koji jesu da je malo njih odusevljeno. zato mi recite: da li ga znate, i ako da, sta o njemu mislite - samo uz vasu pomoc znacu da li sam bila u pravu.

appendix: dennettov email u mom inboxu :lol:

From: Daniel Dennett
To: *****
Subject: Re: valuable social information

thanks for the cue. I checked it out. There's a simple, and sympathetic,
reading of what I wrote where it is true, not false or meaningless. But
I should have been more careful.
DCD

***** wrote:

> you are being ridiculed at:
>
> http://www.columbia....del-incomp4.pdf
>
> (footnote on page 2).
>
> your one and only serbian fan,
> *****

#2 Gonzo

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 23:41

U jeeeeeeeeee, pa ja sam prvi :lol:

#3 Sioran

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 23:48

prvi u cemu? i molim te glasaj!

#4 Gonzo

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 00:01

prvi u glasanju.

#5 Sioran

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 00:21

ah!

dobro, bar cu izgleda imati tu satisfakciju da ga nisam slagala.

#6 Gonzo

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 00:32

Slagala u cemu? Da si jedini srpski postovalac?

P.S. Cestitam godisnjicu.

Edited by Gonzo, 12 April 2003 - 00:38.


#7 Sioran

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:21

>Slagala u cemu? Da si jedini srpski postovalac?

da.

>P.S. Cestitam godisnjicu.

oh yeah... it was a tough one. godina koja je zapoceta banovanjem a zavrsena chat-like moljakanjem da mi se odgovori na neinteresantnu temu.

#8 Wu shu

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 11:10

E al otkuda znas da si bash jedini srpski postovalac gosn Daniela? Pa ti barem znas da to nikako ne mozes da znas. Ej svakakvih nas ima, postovalaca svega sto je izmisljeno ikad, barem po par komaTa minimum. Siguran sam da ces naci srodnu dushu :lol:

#9 Kinik

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 06:26

2 Sioran
.........

Tesko da bih mogao da kazem nesto o D. Denetu. Nisam strucan.
Kao bivseg (neuspesnog) studenta tehnologije uvek me je interesovao Sredinger (njegova jednacina je nekako bila kao bljesak munje). Kasnije, kad sam omatorio, i kad sam se posvetio "samoprosvecivanju", naleteo sam na neke filozofske aspekte nauke (blagi sok!), pa Rasel, Hajzenberg, Viner, Kapra ... itd. (Zamisli loseg matematicara, koji na matematiku gleda kao na umetnost?) No, sve je to nekako bilo "polutanski". Setio sam se, kao kroz maglu, J. Weizenbauma i njegove "Elize" (njegova sekretarica koja ga zamoli da izadje iz prostorije, da bi nesto poverljivo rekla masini?), "predrljao" preko svojih papira i iskopao E. Drekslera, a citajuci tvoje postove pretpostavio o cemu se radi. (Gresim?)
.............
Evo, sada malo vode na aktuelni mlin.
D. Ramsfeld i "Stara Evropa" i tvoj stav protiv raznoraznih "genija".
Ne umem to tacno da objasnim, ali dok slusam "stare Evropljane", a gledam Amerikance (sa svim njihovim postupcima), imam utisak kao da Amerika zna nesto, ili posvecuje paznju necemu, sto mi (verovatno) i ne slutimo? Kao da se dogadjaji odvijaju ne na Srednjem Istoku, ili, nedaj boze, na ulicama gradova u nekakvim "protestima", - vec, neprimetno, u nekim laboratorijama. Nanotehnologija, assembleri? Vestacka Inteligencija? Naucnik koji je pod mikroskopom atomima ispisao IBM? (Palo Alto?) A sa druge strane relikti tipa Zlobimira ili Saddama, na koje se "pale" neuke mase? "Trka kornjace i zeca"?
Ti to bolje znas. (Steta, nemas sagovornika, barem na forumu).
Opet, to je tesko objasniti, "unutrasnji glas", ali je simptomaticno / zabrinjavajuce / a mozda tako i treba da bude / koliko je vremena, napora, misli posveceno stvarima koje su vec "passe"? I nisu to samo forumski "likovi", nego i neki koji se trse da su "savest covecanstva"?
Izvinjavam se za smusen post.

#10 jamie

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 15:13

DANIEL C. DENNETT >>>>>>>>>>>>> ddennett@tufts.edu :lol:

#11 Sioran

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 18:37

wow, sedam glasova, od toga jedan saljiv.

mozda je u neku ruku i bolje da dennetta niko i ne zna posto da ga zna ovde bi se razvila mnogostranicna bitka slicna onoj koju imam kada u pravom zivotu zapodenem dijalog sa nekim ko naivno napomene da zna nesto o njemu (neki bi rekli, i sa bilo kim o bilo cemu).

da sve vase znanje o dennettu ne bi ostalo na informaciji u njegovom emialu (koji je jamie vesto iscackao)...

dennett se pre svega bavi objasnjenjem svesti - kako je moguce da ljudi misle da su svesni a da su pri tome (ocigledno) napravljeni od materijalnih stvari (tipa celije). u ovom pasusu dennett ne daje svoje objasnjenje vec objasnjava zasto se ljudi plase da ideje da ce svest biti objasnjena i zasto toga ne treba da se plase (iz knjige "consciousness explained", p. 24-25)

on the view of consciousness i will develop in this book, it turns out that consciousness, like love and money, is a phenomenon that does indeed depend to a surprising extent on tis associated concepts. although, like love, it has an elaborate biological base, like money, some ot its most significant features are borne along on the culture, not simply inherent, somewho, in the physical structure of its instances. so if i am right, and if i succeed in overthrowing some of those concepts, i will threaten with extinction whatever phenomena of consciousness depend on them. are we about to enter the postconscious period of human conceptualization? is this something to fear? is it even conceivable?

if the concept of consciousness were to "fall to science", what would happen to our sense of moral agency and free will? if conscious experience were "reduced" somehow to mere matter in motion, what wouldhappen to our appreciation of love and pain and dreams and joy? if conscious human beings were "just" animated material objects, how could anything we do to them be right or wrong? these are among the fears that fuel the resistance and distract the concentration of those who are confronted with attempts to explain consciousness.

i am confident that these fears are misguided, but they are not obviously misguided. they raise the stakes in the confrontation of theory and argument that is about to begin. there are powerful arguments, quite independent of the fears, arrayed against the srot of scientific, materialistic theory i will propose, and i acknowledge that it falls to me to demonstrate not only that these arguments are mistaken, but also that the widespread acceptance of my vision of consciousness would not have these dire consequences in any case. [and if i had discovered that it would likely have these effects - what would i have done then? i wouldnt' have written this book, but beyond that, i just don't know.]

(a sad, moj omiljeni deo)

looking on the bright side, let us remind ourselves of what has happened in the wake of earlier demystifications. we find no diminution of wonder; on the contrary, we find deeper beauties and more dazzling visions of the complexity of the universe than the protectors of mystery ever conceived. the "magic" of earlier visions was, for the most part, a cover-up for frank failures of imagination, a boring dodge enshrined in the concept of a deus ex machina. fiery gods driving golden chariots across the skies are simpleminded comic-book fare compared to the ravishing strangeness of contemporary cosmology, and the recursive intricacies of the reproductive machinery of DNA make elan vital about as interesting as superman's dead kryptonite. when we understand consciousness - when there si no mystery - consciousness will be different, but there will still be beaty, and more room than ever for awe.

#12 Sioran

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 18:53

>Setio sam se, kao kroz maglu, J. Weizenbauma i njegove "Elize" (njegova sekretarica koja ga zamoli da izadje iz prostorije, da bi nesto poverljivo rekla masini?),

mozda ce te zainteresovati ovaj tekst:

the first lecture i attended as a graduate student at harvard in 1976 was by the famous computer scientist joseph weizenbaum. he was an early contributor to artificial intelligence (AI) and is best remembered for the program eliza, which fooled people into thinking that the computer was conversing though it was just spouting canned repartee. weisenbaum had just published computer power and human reason, a critique of artificial intelligence and computer models of cognition, praised as "the most important computer book of the past decade". i had misgivings about the book, which was short on argument and long on anctimony. (for example, he wrote that certain ideas in artificial intelligence, such as science-fiction proposal for a hybrid of nervous systems and computers, were "simply obscene. these are [applications] whose very contemplation ought to give rise to feelings of disgust in every civilized person... one must wonder what must have happened to the proposers' perception of life, hence to their perceptions of themselves as part of the continuum of life, that they can even think of such a thing.") still, nothing could have prepared me for the performance in store at the science center that afternoon.

weizenbaum discussed an AI program by the computer scientists alan newell and herbert simon (ljudi sa carnegie mellona, btw, mog alma mater :lol:) that relied on analogy: if it knew the solution to one problem, it applied the solution to other problems with a similar logical structure. this, weizenbaum told us, was really designed to help the pentagon come up with counterinsurgency strategies in vietnam. the vietcong had been said to "move in the jungle as fish move in the water". if the program were fed this information, he said, it could deduce that just as you can drain a pond to expose the fish, you can denude the jungle to expose the vietcong. turning to research on speech recognition by computer, he said that the only conceivable reason to study speech perception was to allow CIA to monitor millions of telephone conversations simultaneously, and he urged the students in the audience to boycott the topic. but, he added, it didn't realy matter if we ignored his advice because he was completely certain - there was not the slightest doubt in his mind - that by the year 2000 we would all be dead. and with that inspiring charge to the younger generation he ended the talk.

the rumors of our death turned out to be greatly exaggerated, and the other prophecies of that afternoon fared no better. the use of analogy in reasoning, far from being the work of devil, is today a major esearch topi in cognitive science and is widely considered a key to what makes us smart. speech-recognition software is routinely used in telephone information services and comes packaged with home computers, where it has been a godsend for the disabled and for people with repetitive strain injuries. and weizenbaum's accusations stand as a reminder of the political paranoia and moral exhibitionism that characterized university life in the 1970s, the era in which the current opposition to the sciences of human nature took shape.

steven pinker, the blank slate, p. 105-106.

Edited by Sioran, 13 April 2003 - 19:29.


#13 Dragan

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 20:16

Uopste me ne inenadjuje sto je samozaljubljena "am I right" pokrenula ovaj monolog topic velicanja Denetta (i Pinkerta) koji koliko sam uspeo da shvatim nema pojma o dubljim fenomenima svesti
ali me veoma iznenadjuje ovo neuobicajeno ulizivanje cuvenog Kinika koji je poznat po tome da nema dlake na jeziku sto je lepo pokazao, nicim izazvan, i na topicu o ikonama.
Dakle ona njemu serdare (nemam s kime ni da pricam) a on njoj vojvotkinjo (ti to bolje znas, steta sto nemas sagovornika na forumu).
Ipak primecuju se i neki napredak - ona (neki zlobnici bi rekli da ja tako sa svakim o svakoj temi) i on (priznajem pomalo sam smusen).

#14 Sioran

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 22:28

>topic velicanja Denetta (i Pinkerta) koji koliko sam uspeo da shvatim nema pojma o dubljim fenomenima svesti

ma meni jedino smeta sto ti te ljude kritikujes umesto da im pomognes. za pocetak, sto im ne posaljes koju kopiju treceg oka, zone sumraka, horoskopa etc (ti ces vec znati to bolje od mene), da ljudi shvate u kakvom mraku zive?

#15 Kinik

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 23:00

2 Dragan
.........

Z©ink, z©ink! (zinkari, t.j. zvoni zvonce) ...

Sto te "iznenadjuje ovo neuobicajeno ulizivanje cuvenog K. koji je poznat po tome... " pa cak "... i neki napredak ..." - kad si "uspeo da shvatis da D&P nemaju pojma o dubljim fenomenima svesti". Koliko nemaju? Zaista je "fenomen svesti" duboka stvar.
Sorry, ali uvek nas nesto iznenadi.

Mi se cini, da se pretrzes i "nicim izazvan" pratis moj "rad" po topicima. Wow!
Meni niko na ovom forumu nije toliko stao na "kurje trece oko". To je barem jednostavno - udobna obuca, elementarna higijena (i duhovna), tople kupke, kreme, talk.
Legitimno samozalubljen u sopstvene "zuljeve" do velicanja? A tudje?

A-a-a-a-a (pokazuje jezik, nema dlake) ...
Doktore, ima li nade?