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Spijunska saga II deo


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#16 starks

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 10:06

Hvala starks
Probao sam to isto da mu napisem prije ali nikak da nadjem vremena.


vjeruj mi da sam se morao napregnuti...rekao sam sebi

da neću više pisati duge postove ali me uvijek nekako povuče...

oko ovog zadnjeg slučaja me najviše smeta što se već počelo
o presudama pričata a nije prošlo niti saslušanje...

Evo da barem malo novih novosti dodam...

'Former Renault employee tipped of McLaren'
Friday 9th November 2007

A Renault employee on his way to McLaren was the one who reportedly told the Woking outfit that his former team had CDs of McLaren's technical information.

In the latest spy scandal to rock Formula One, Renault have been charged by the FIA of having "unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to McLaren."



ovo gore dolazi od engleskih novina...

e sada po svemu sudeći nije bilo ničega kao što je veza Coughlan-Stepney...znači između dva trenutna zaposlenika...

McLaren mora dokazati ili
1) da je taj McNešto dok je bio u McM odavao tajne Renaultu
ili 2)da je nakon što je postao zaposlenik Renaulta imao nekakvu krticu u McLarenu
i dolazio do povjerljivih podataka ...

Sve ostalo je bez veze...tehničari i vozači prelaze konstatno i prenose ideje sa sobom...

#17 starks

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 10:19

Amid accusations that Renault possessed detailed information about its Woking-based rival's single seaters and systems, one spokeswoman for the 2005 and 2006 world champions said 'for legal reasons' she could not comment.

A Renault spokesman added: "Ever since this matter came to light we have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA and we will continue to do so."

At the height of the Ferrari versus McLaren espionage saga this year, it emerged that McLaren had evidence that Renault could also be implicated in a separate case of spying.

Media reports identified former McLaren engineer Phil Mackereth as having taken to Renault three disks of detailed information about the Ron Dennis-led team.

An FIA statement on Thursday said Renault chiefs would appear at the World Motor Sport Council in Monaco on December 6th to answer the charge.


Renault recently granted McLaren access to its computer systems in order to internally investigate the accusations.

One insider told The Independent newspaper: "The amount and depth of the information (found at Renault) makes 'Stepneygate' look like a walk in the park."

Aside from the hefty penalties that the Flavio Briatore-led outfit could face, the issue might also blight Renault's efforts to return Fernando Alonso to the team in 2008.



podebljano objašnjava motive ,a inače izjave engleskih medija su jako određene...

jedan insajder jednom prilikom je jednom nešto rekao :rolleyes:

#18 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 13:06

Nemam vremena za opsiran odgovor, zato za sada samo ovoliko:


http://www.fia.com/m.../081107-01.html

World Motor Sport Council
08.11.2007

Representatives of the Renault F1 Team have been requested to appear before a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Monaco on Thursday, December 6, 2007.

The team representatives have been called to answer a charge that between September 2006 and October 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, the Renault F1 Team had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, including, but not limited to the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, together with details of the McLaren fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars.

For Media Information Purposes - No Regulatory Value



http://www.fia.com/m.../120707-01.html

EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE
WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL
12.07.2007

Representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday, July 26, 2007.

The team representatives have been called to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car.

For Media Information Purposes - No Regulatory Value


Ovo su, dakle, zvanicni komunikei FIA a ne pisanje po novinama, gde (kao sto smo videli letos) svako moze svasta da izvali...

#19 alpiner

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 14:54

:rolleyes:
Proof That the Renault Formula One Team Cheated!!!

...some may be fooled by the planted stories that Renault struggled to come to grips with the aerodynamics of the new Bridgestone tires...

We won't buy this cover-up.

Because, it is the RS27 itself which will sentence Renault to pay the FIA millions of francs.

After producing a R25 that won eight races, scored 18 podiums, and won Fernando Alonso his first driver's title, and the team a constructor's championship....

And after producing a R26 that won eight races, scored 20 podiums, won Fernando Alonso his second driver's title, and the team a second straight contructor's championship....

The Renault Formula One outdid McLaren themselves by using McLaren technology on the R27.

It is the silver arrow.. er bullet... so to speak.

In 2006, McLaren and their piece of crap MP4-21 missed winning a race for the first time since 1996. Heck, they even had 2007 Formula One driver's champion Kimi Raikkonen at the wheel...

And the damn thing still couldn't win, and nearly couldn't grab a Pole.

But it is clear that Renault not only seized upon the data in hand, but obviously used it in the R27, and nearly one-upped McLaren....

Not only did Renault not win a race for the first time since 2002, they nearly didn't grab a podium. It was only the rain gods at the Japanese Grand Prix that intervened and gifted Renault a podium finish.

So it's clear... Renault have obviously cheated in 2007, because suddenly their success of the past was erased, and their pace resembled the McLaren of 2006.

The case is closed.

Renault is guilty as charged.

:huh:

#20 starks

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 15:53

Nemam vremena za opsiran odgovor, zato za sada samo ovoliko:




Ovo su, dakle, zvanicni komunikei FIA a ne pisanje po novinama, gde (kao sto smo videli letos) svako moze svasta da izvali...


Da i?

Hoćeš reći da šlampavo sastavljaju pozive...slažem se
Ja ti još jednom kažem da je McLaarenu dokazano posjedovanje i kod prvog saslušanja...no oslobođeni su jer se povjerovalo da je sve bilo ograničeno
na Coughlana..tada su bile žestoke rasprave tko je sve vidio te dokumente..nije bilo sporno da su kod
Coughlana

Znači morati će se dokazati posjedovanje i korištenje tj. da su i ostali članovi Renaulta to znali...
i još k tome koristili...pročitaj zaključak prvog saslušanja...


McLarenov iskaz se pokazao neistinitim a vjeruj mi da je samo to dovoljno
za kaznu...nakon toga je sve što je izišlo od McLarena postalo krajnje sumnjivo

da ne kažem da se pokazalo da su itekako koristili te materijale...


u Renaultu kažu da nisu zabrinuti niti imaju što skrivati ali dok traje istraga ne žele ništa komentirati...
Tako se to i radi...dokazi se ne bi smjeli iznositi u javnost...

Zato pričekajmo...da nam bace malo više svjetla...a i ovo što piše alpiner ima itekako smisla...
Renaultovo špijuniranje McLarena nema nikakvog smisla...

2006 su se borili sa Ferrariem i bili si klasa za McLaren
2007 opet bi meta špijuniranja mogao biti samo Ferrari jer je svima bilo jasno da su favoriti za titulu baš oni zbog iskustva sa Bridgestone-om

#21 starks

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 16:27

Ipak je floppy disk u pitanju :rolleyes: :huh: :)
kako lažu engleski novinari...a i otpustili su ovog lika
dok Coughlan izgleda i dalje radi za McM



On the 6th September 2007 it came to our attention that an engineer (Mr Phil Mackereth) who joined the team from McLaren in Sept 2006 had brought with him some information that was considered to be proprietary to McLaren. This information was contained on old style floppy discs and included copies of some McLaren engineering drawings and some technical spreadsheets. This information was loaded at the request of Mr Mackereth onto his personal directory on the Renault F1 Team file system. This was done without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team. As soon as the situation was brought to the attention of the team’s technical management, the following actions were taken:

• The information was completely cleansed from the team’s computer systems and a formal investigation was started.
• We promptly informed McLaren of the situation and immediately after the FIA.
• Since then we have constantly and regularly kept McLaren and the FIA informed on all relevant findings.
• Mr Mackereth was immediately suspended from his position.
• The original floppy discs were impounded and sent to our solicitors for return to McLaren.

Our formal investigation showed that early in his employment with Renault Mr Mackereth made some of our engineers aware of parts of this information in the form of a few reduced scale engineering drawings. These drawings covered four basic systems as used by McLaren and were: the internal layout of the fuel tank, the basic layout of the gear clusters, a tuned mass damper and a suspension damper. Subsequent witness statements from the engineers involved have categorically stated that having been briefly shown these drawings, none of this information was used to influence design decisions relating to the Renault car. In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value. The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept.

ING Renault F1 Team have co-operated fully with McLaren and the FIA in this matter to the extent that the team has invited McLaren’s independent experts to come and assess the team’s computer systems and inspect the cars and the design records, to demonstrate that this unfortunate incident has not in anyway influenced the design of the cars.

ING Renault F1 Team have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA, being proactive in solving this matter and we are fully confident in the judgment of the World Council.



#22 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:06

starks, kako tamo lepo pise optuzba je i u jednom i u drugom slucaju "breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code ... unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information". Znaci, ne "lying about having possession" ili "using documents and confidential information" vec "possession". To je optuzba na koju su pozvani pred FIA da odgovore Meklarenovci letos a Renoovci sada.

Ono ostalo su sve okolnosti specificnih slucajeva i advokatska mudrovanja. Kao sto sam ti napisao, a ti ili nisi zeleo ili nisi bio u stanju da razumes, Meklaren se originalno branio tvrdnjama da je Kulan delao bez znanja tima i da niko drugi nije baratio tim informacijama niti je znao za postojanje dosijea od 780 stranica, da bi se kasnije ispostavilo da to bas i nije tacno. Otuda i odluke takve kakve jesu. Meklaren je originalno proglasen krivim zato sto su bili u posedu informacija (nalazile su se na njihovom laptopu kod Kulana kuci), ali nije kaznjen jer nije bilo dokaza da je bilo ko drugi u Meklarenu znao za tih 780 stranica. Otuda formulacija "nisu imali koristi".

Kasnije je isplivalo na videlo da su istim infromacijama baratala najmanje jos dva clana tima, Pedro Delarosa i Fernando Alonzo, a verovatno i jos neki pored njih dvojice, znaci ipak su informacije dosle do Paragona. Pa je odrezana kazna od $100 miliona, zbog neovlastenog posedovanja.

E to ti je ukratko digest nekoliko stotina stranica advokatskog mlatimudjenja i nadmudrivanja tokom dva saslusanja Meklarenovaca pred WMSC.

E sad, ja jos uvek cekam da vidim bilo koji zvanicni dokument FIA u kome se tvrdi da su optuzbe protiv Meklarena bile bilo sta osim tacno kako tamo gore pise neovlastenog posedovanja poverljivih podataka i dokumenata. Nadjes li negde tako nesto budi ljubazan pa podeli sa svima nama ovde...

#23 "Doc" Holliday

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:44

citam sve ovo sada mi nista nije jasno :rolleyes:

#24 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:38

Autosport:

Over 15 Renault men involved in spy case

By Jonathan Noble Friday, November 9th 2007, 18:40 GMT

At least 15 engineers at Renault knew about the McLaren technical information that is at the centre of the latest spy investigation, autosport.com has learned.

Renault are to face a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council next month to answer charges that they had in their possession intellectual property belonging to McLaren.

This information was part of a number of floppy disks that engineer Phil Mackareth brought with him to the Enstone team from McLaren in September 2006.

Renault have admitted that Mackareth had the information transferred to his computer at Renault, and showed scale drawings to 'some engineers', but are adamant that the details were not used to influence their car design.

McLaren have also conducted their own investigation into the matter at Renault's Enstone headquarters, having used the independent Kroll company, and it is believed a dossier of evidence about the matter has been submitted to the FIA.

Autosport.com understands that Renault and McLaren's investigations have revealed that more than 15 engineers in total examined the information from McLaren, which included details on the 2007 car. It is believed each of these has confirmed the fact in writing.

Sources have suggested that the engineers are not just junior staff members, but also include head of vehicle performance and R&D, deputy technical director, deputy chief designer and chief designer Tim Densham.

The extent of knowledge within Renault about the McLaren information mirrors similar claims surrounding the McLaren/Ferrari case, where the depth of the knowledge about Ferrari secrets extended well beyond just chief designer Mike Coughlan.


Renault says McLaren data was not used

By Jonathan Noble Friday, November 9th 2007, 15:31 GMT

Renault are adamant that none of the McLaren intellectual property at the centre of the new spy controversy has been used in the design of their Formula One cars.

The former world champions have been summoned to appear before a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council on December 6 to answer charges that the team had McLaren design details in their possession.

In a statement issued by Renault on Friday, however, the team said that former McLaren engineer Phil Mackareth had arrived at the team with several old-style floppy disks that included engineering drawings and some technical spreadsheets from his former employers.

Although this information was loaded onto Mackareth's computer at Renault, and some small-scale drawings shown to other members of staff, investigations have suggested that it provided no influence on car design.

The statement said: "Subsequent witness statements from the engineers involved have categorically stated that having been briefly shown these drawings, none of this information was used to influence design decisions relating to the Renault car."

Renault also reiterated that they have cooperated fully with McLaren and the FIA on the matter ever since they were alerted about the discs in early September.

As well as suspending Mackareth, the discs have been returned to McLaren and all the information on Renault's systems has been deleted.

The statement added: "ING Renault F1 Team have co-operated fully with McLaren and the FIA in this matter to the extent that the team has invited McLaren's independent experts to come and assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and the design records, to demonstrate that this unfortunate incident has not in anyway influenced the design of the cars.

"ING Renault F1 Team have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA, being proactive in solving this matter and we are fully confident in the judgment of the World Council."


The full statement from Renault

Friday, November 9th 2007, 15:33 GMT

Following the notification of the FIA for the ING Renault F1 Team representatives to appear in front of the World Council, the team wishes to clarify the situation.

On the 6th September 2007 it came to our attention that an engineer (Mr Phil Mackereth) who joined the team from McLaren in Sept 2006 had brought with him some information that was considered to be proprietary to McLaren. This information was contained on old style floppy discs and included copies of some McLaren engineering drawings and some technical spreadsheets.

This information was loaded at the request of Mr Mackereth onto his personal directory on the Renault F1 Team file system. This was done without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team. As soon as the situation was brought to the attention of the team's technical management, the following actions were taken:

The information was completely cleansed from the team's computer systems and a formal investigation was started. We promptly informed McLaren of the situation and immediately after the FIA.

Since then we have constantly and regularly kept McLaren and the FIA informed on all relevant findings.

Mr Mackereth was immediately suspended from his position. The original floppy discs were impounded and sent to our solicitors for return to McLaren.

Our formal investigation showed that early in his employment with Renault Mr Mackereth made some of our engineers aware of parts of this information in the form of a few reduced scale engineering drawings. These drawings covered four basic systems as used by McLaren and were: the internal layout of the fuel tank, the basic layout of the gear clusters, a tuned mass damper and a suspension damper.

Subsequent witness statements from the engineers involved have categorically stated that having been briefly shown these drawings, none of this information was used to influence design decisions relating to the Renault car. In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value.

The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept.

ING Renault F1 Team have co-operated fully with McLaren and the FIA in this matter to the extent that the team has invited McLaren's independent experts to come and assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and the design records, to demonstrate that this unfortunate incident has not in anyway influenced the design of the cars.

ING Renault F1 Team have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA, being proactive in solving this matter and we are fully confident in the judgment of the World Council.



#25 alpiner

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:46

Postoji nekoliko razlika u ova dva slučaja.
Prva je da niko od zaposlenih u Renaultu nije primao podatke od McLarena. Znači lik koji je prešao u Renault je ovo uradio na svoju ruku i niko od zaposlenih u Renaultu nije "naručio" bilo šta od podataka. I druga stvar, pošto vidim da si se raspisao po forumima kako Renault mora biti kažnjen istom cifrom, McLaren je postao kriv tek kada se dokazalo da su koristili podatke. U ovom slučaju mi to još uvek ne znamo...ili je to već dokazano performansama R27 i kopiranog MP4-21. :rolleyes:

#26 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:19

Postoji nekoliko razlika u ova dva slučaja.
Prva je da niko od zaposlenih u Renaultu nije primao podatke od McLarena. Znači lik koji je prešao u Renault je ovo uradio na svoju ruku i niko od zaposlenih u Renaultu nije "naručio" bilo šta od podataka.

Istina. S tim sto nije niko ni iz Meklarena narucivao podatke nego ih je Stepni slao "na svoju ruku". Pa su cak u Meklarenu ugradili firewall da odbijaju njegove mejlove. No Kulan je nastavio kontakte sa njim, navodno bez znanja tima i sa ciljem da zajedno predju u Hondu.

(Inace postoje tvrdnje - nedokazane - da je tok informacija bio dvostran, i da je Kulan slao Stepniju podatke o Meklarenu.)

I druga stvar, pošto vidim da si se raspisao po forumima kako Renault mora biti kažnjen istom cifrom, McLaren je postao kriv tek kada se dokazalo da su koristili podatke. U ovom slučaju mi to još uvek ne znamo...ili je to već dokazano performansama R27 i kopiranog MP4-21. :rolleyes:

Netacno. Meklaren je proglasen krivim posle prvog saslusanja. Razlika je samo u kazni koja je dodeljena.

Prvobitno su dobili samo opomenu jer nije bilo dokaza da je bilo ko osim Kulana baratao tim informacijama te da su one bile kod njega kuci (ali na Meklarenovom laptopu, znaci u Meklarenovom posedu; otuda krivica za posedovanje)

Kasnije je dokazano da su informacije ipak procurele do paragona i da ih je video veci broj ljudi u Meklarenu. E, onda je kazna za posedovanje (Meklaren nikada nije tuzen za nesto drugo osim toga - i za tebe vazi poziv, nadjes li takvu informaciju od FIA molim te da je podelis sa nama) preinacena na $100 miliona i diskvalifikaciju u prvenstvu konstruktora. I dalje nije dokazano da su informacije upotrebljene, mada je Mozli rekao da "postoji mogucnost da jesu" pa zbog toga sledi inspekcija Meklarenovog bolida za dogodine da se vidi da tu ne bude nekih neispravnosti.


Kao sto vidimo iz Renoovog saopstenja, Meklarenove informacije je videlo 15-tak ljudi u Renou ukljucujuci i isti kadar poput Kulana u Meklarenu, i one su se nasle na njihovoj mrezi u sedistu tima. Reno tvrdi da te informacije nije koristio i ja im verujem, isto kao sto verujem da Meklaren nije koristio Stepnijev dosije. Ali to je irelevantno, zato sto je FIA vec napravila to sto je napravila, presedan postoji i sada po njemu mora da se dela.

Takodje, verujem da Flavio nije znao za ovo isto kao sto verujem da Ron nije znao za Meklarenovu "situaciju". Ali mi je milo sto je Flavio sada na tapetu zato sto se letos onako zlurado nasladjivao kad su Meklaren po medijima razapinjali na krst.

Sve se vraca, sve se placa.

#27 alpiner

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:53

Ponoviću po n-ti put. Da li se sećaš mass dampera?
Da li se sećaš kakva je kampanja vođena od strane McLarena i Dennisa kako bi se ova genijalna sprava zabranila. Ne sećaš se McLaren-Ferrari-FIA kampanje da se mass damperi zabrane po svaku cenu?
Možda ovde leži razlog Flaviove "umešanosti" u Stepnigejtu.

Ima Ron putera na glavi.

#28 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:59

Ponoviću po n-ti put. Da li se sećaš mass dampera?
Da li se sećaš kakva je kampanja vođena od strane McLarena i Dennisa kako bi se ova genijalna sprava zabranila. Ne sećaš se McLaren-Ferrari-FIA kampanje da se mass damperi zabrane po svaku cenu?

Da, u pravu si za ovo.
Moze da se povuce paralela i sa onim kada su Beneton i Ferari na isti nacin izdejstvovali kod FIA zabranu koriscenja berilijuma u motorima i menjacima, sto je tada Meklaren dosta kostalo.

Možda ovde leži razlog Flaviove "umešanosti" u Stepnigejtu.

Ima Ron putera na glavi.

Mozda je Flavio ipak trebalo da proveri prvo da li je u ovom slucaju njegovo dvoriste skroz cisto pre nego sto se istrcao da cisti po tudjem? :rolleyes:

#29 alpiner

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 22:17

Mozda je Flavio ipak trebalo da proveri prvo da li je u ovom slucaju njegovo dvoriste skroz cisto pre nego sto se istrcao da cisti po tudjem? :rolleyes:


Ovde si potpuno u pravu. Iskreno, nije mi se svidelo kada se umešao. No sada je sve gotovo i ovo nikako ne umanjuje neke druge njegove kvalitete kojima se divim.

#30 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 22:53

Ovde si potpuno u pravu. Iskreno, nije mi se svidelo kada se umešao. No sada je sve gotovo i ovo nikako ne umanjuje neke druge njegove kvalitete kojima se divim.

OK sefe, slazem se... :rolleyes: