3021 replies to this topic

[eubph]

Pričao sam konkretno o Gazi! Gaza je data i tamo je hamas. Znači zašto hamas gađa raketama i otima rakete kad im je data teritorija da rade šta žele?
Znači magija 1967 kao što ti tvrdiš njima je data... a pod ostalom oni ne gađaju raketama zbog 1967 nego svaki dan menjaju razlog...


Gazans fleeing Hamas trapped at crossing into Israel

[Anduril]

tvoj stav mi je jako smešan! Ok, znači Izrael ne strahuje od uništenja po tvojim postovima pošto ima najjaču vojsku u celom bliskom istoku!

Ma kad malo bolje razmislim, uopšte nisi vredan pričanja! Tvrdiš da izrael ne daje vodu i struju Palestincima i kad ti dokažem da im Izrael daje onda kažeš da sam smešan zato što je li imaš drugova i bio si tamo. Ja živim 'tamo' i svi moji drugovi su 'tamo' i svakodnevno čitam ovdašnje novine tako da nemoj da merimo lična iskustva.

Izrael više nema šta da traži u Gazi, izrael je dao gazu kao gest daljeg kompromisa ali hamasovci su shvatili to kao pobedu i počeli da gađaju raketama i otimaju vojnike. Istovremeno izrael ih snadbeva vodom i strujom i kanalizacijom, osnovnim potrebama, dok ovi tvrde da su pobedili rat. Savršeno!
Zašto ih Egipat ne snadbeva, zašto mora izrael? Šta Izrael ima da traži u gazi? Egipat ne želi da prlja ruke u gazi kao što nije hteo Sadat 1978! Ali ne... Ti koji misliš da je 'Izrael na tvojoj strani' i koji tako čvrsto braniš, kritikuješ izrael da ih ne snadbeva dovoljno...
Da li bi ti davao nekoj zemlji struju i vodu ako bi te ovi svakodnevno gađali i otimali tvoje vojnike? Ajde prestani da se glupiraš i da misliš kako su uvek upravu nego malo bolje razmišljaj pre nego što napišeš nešto.
Da si ti na Izraelskom mestu da li bi mislio da je pametno dati i zapadnu obalu posle gaze? Šta bi uradio da si na Izraelskom mestu? Dao bi im više vode? Struje? nafte? Koja magija treba da im se da da prestanu da gađaju kasam raketama?

Istina je da Hamas neće uništiti izrael Kasam raketama i otimanjem vojnika ali to će samo još više da nervira Izrael. Oni imaju taj san/cilj i shvati da takvi nikad neće prestati dok ne ispune svoj cilj. Ali siguran sam da je izrael kriv i za to zato što im nije poslao dovoljno vode...

Poslednji put odgovaram na tvoje nesuvisle postove. Zivis u Izraelu, a ocigledno ne poznajes ili neces da znas osnovne cinjenice koje bi svako morao znati, ako hoce nesto da komentarise o politickoj situaciji u regionu. Dakle, krecemo:
1. Izrael kontrolise posle 1967. gotovo 90 posto dotoka vode u regionu, iako se izvori te vode ne nalaze u Izraelu ili se nalaze nagranici Izraela sa susednim drzavama. Rat 1967. je zapravo bio rat oko vode, tj. kontrole nad Golanom.
2. Glavni izvori vode su Golan, reka Jordan, Galilejsko jezero (ovo troje je zapravo povezano) i podzemne vode u dolini Jordana, tj. ono sto mi nazivamo West Bank. Gaza i sam Izrael (izvan West Banka) ne mogu ni priblizno da namire svoju potrosnju iz izvora na svojoj teritoriji.
3. Nekoliko hiljada izraelskih naseljenika u West Banku i Izrael uzimaju i koriste 80% podzemnih voda iz West Banka. 20% posto ostaje milionskoj palestinskoj populaciji.
4. Tel Aviv i okolina se uglavno snadbevaju podzemnim vodama sa West Banka.
5. Izraelska vojska strogo kontrolise pristup pumpama za podzemnu vodu i Palestincima je ograniceno/onemoguceno postavljanje novih pumpi na sopsvenoj zemlji.
6. Evropska Komisija i Svetska Banka finansiraju projekte u Gazi i West Banku da bi se poboljsala snadbevenost pijacom vodom, posto je stanje tamo po tom pitanju mestimicno bilo katastrofalno.
7. Prosecan Palestinac ima znatno manje (oko 50-70%) vode na raspolaganju nego sto propisuje WHO. Potrosnja u Izraelu po stanovniku je oko 4-5 puta veca u zavisnosti od izvora.
8. Gaza se moze snadbevati vodom jedino sa West Banka, preko Izraela. Medjutim, kao sto vec rekoh, Izrael uzima 80% citave vode na ime

poreza

.

I posle svih ovih cinjenica, ti meni nesto pricas da zivis u Izraelu i da Izrael donira Palestincima ovo ili ono. Mislim da je ipak verovatnije da zivis na Marsu, posto o realnoj situaciji ne znas ili neces da znas ama bas nista, i treba da te bude sramota da pises ovakve gluposti gore.

Moja jedina poenta oko vode i snadbevanja istom je ova: Bez vode nema ekonomije, bez vode nema napretka, bez vode nema kulture, bez vode nema civilizacije, bez vode nema i nikad nece biti mira. Voda je osnovno na Bliskom istoku, oduvek je to bila kroz istoriju, i ona je glavni uzrok sukoba u tom regionu, a ne neki Islamizmi, Cionizmi ili Panarabizmi koji su samo povrsne ideologije da bi se opravdao sukob.

Pitas sta je resenje? Pa recimo da Izrael sa svojim susedima Libanom, Palestincima, Sirijom i Jordanom napravi konacno jedan fer dogovor oko koriscenja vode od koje su svi zavisni. A fer ne znaci da Izrael koristi 90% vode vec recimo 50%, a ostatak da prepusti pre svega Palestincima i Jordanu. Doduse, sa Jordanom postoji vec jedan sporazum, ali to nije resilo problem koji Jordan ima sa vodom. Jos bolje bi bilo da Izrael recimo placa Palestincima vodu u vidu ekonomske saradnje, investicija, izgradnje infrastrukture itd., da bi se region i narodi konacno povezali ekonomski.
Ali, sto bi placali, kada vojnom silom mogu jednostavno da otmu i ne placaju nista, pa cak tu istu vodu prodaju Palestincima u Gazi!? U takvim uslovima, bez vode, i najveci skandinavski levicar bi ispoljio mrznju o kojoj je Nautilus pricao.


P.S. Izvori: BBC website i jedan geoloski naucni casopis, ako imas nesto protiv BBC-a

Obstacles to peace: Water
The BBC News website is publishing a series of articles about the attempts to achieve peace in the Middle East and the main obstacles. Martin Asser looks at the central issue of water.


Israel and the Palestinians' main water resources

Enlarge Image

The Arab-Israeli dispute is a conflict about land - and maybe just as crucially the water which flows through that land.

The Six-Day War in 1967 arguably had its origins in a water dispute - moves to divert the River Jordan, Israel's main source of drinking water.

Years of skirmishes and sabre rattling culminated in all-out war, with Israel quadrupling the territory it controlled and gaining complete control of double the resources of fresh water.

A country needs water to survive and develop.

In Israel's history, it has needed water to make feasible the influx of huge numbers of Jewish immigrants.


OBSTACLES TO PEACE

History of negotiations
Jerusalem
Water
Refugees
Borders and settlements

Therefore, on the margins of one of the most arid environments on earth, the available water system had to support not just the indigenous population, mainly Palestinian peasant farmers, but also hundreds of thousands of immigrants.

In addition to their sheer numbers, citizens of the new state were intent on conducting water-intensive commercial agricultural such as growing bananas and citrus fruits.

Shared water

Israel says the 1967 war was forced upon it by the imminent threat of hostile Arab countries and there was no intention to occupy more land or resources.

But the war's outcome left Israel occupying an area not far short of the territory claimed by the founders of the Zionist movement at the beginning of the 20th Century.

In 1919, the Zionist delegation at the Paris Peace Conference said the Golan Heights, Jordan valley, what is now the West Bank, as well as Lebanon's river Litani were "essential for the necessary economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have... the control of its rivers and their headwaters".




Photo journal: Water use
In the 1967 war Israel gained exclusive control of the waters of the West Bank and the Sea of Galilee, although not the Litani.

Those resources - the West Bank's mountain aquifer and the Sea of Galilee - give Israel about 60% of its fresh water, a billion cubic metres per year.

Heated arguments rage about the rights to the mountain aquifer. Israel, and Israeli settlements, take about 80% of the aquifer's flow, leaving the Palestinians with 20%.

Israel says the proportion of water it uses has not changed substantially since the 1950s. The rain which replenishes the aquifer may fall on the occupied territory, but the water does flow down into pre-1967 Israel.

But the Palestinians say they are prevented from using their own water resources by a belligerent military power, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to buy water from their occupiers at inflated prices.

Moreover, Israel allocates its citizens, including those living in settlements in the West Bank deemed illegal under international law, with between three and five times more water than the Palestinians.

This, Palestinians say, is crippling to their agricultural economy.

With water consumption outstripping supply in both Israel and the Palestinian territories, Palestinians say they are always the first community to be rationed as reserves run dry, with the health problems that entails.

Fruitless discussions

Not surprisingly, during the era of Arab-Israeli peacemaking in the 1990s, water rights became one of the trickiest areas of discussion.

They were set aside to be dealt with in the "final status" Israel-Palestinian talks, which were never concluded.


REPLENISHABLE RESOURCES
Sources in million cubic metres per year:
Sea of Galilee - 700
Mountain Aquifer - 370
Coastal Aquifer (Gaza) - 320
Other - 410
Israeli allocations:
56% agriculture
38% household
6% industry
(Source: Israeli government)

Meanwhile, Israeli settlement activity continued in some of most sensitive water areas in the West Bank, despite Israel's undertaking not to act in ways that prejudice final status talks.

Stalled negotiations on Syria's dispute with Israel over the Golan Heights - occupied by Israel in 1967 and annexed in 1980 - also foundered on water-related issues.

Syria wants an Israeli withdrawal to 5 June 1967 borders, allowing Syria access to the Jordan and Yarmouk rivers. Israel wants to use boundaries dating back to 1923 and the British Mandate, which give the areas to Israel.

By contrast, the Jordan-Israel treaty of 1994 produced notable agreement on use of wells in the Wadi Araba area in the south and sharing the Yarmouk in the north.

In the 21st Century Israel has tried to solve the Palestinian problem unilaterally, pulling troops and settlers from Gaza and building a barrier around West Bank areas with the largest concentration of Palestinians.

Although Israel says this is a temporary security measure, the barrier encroaches deep onto occupied territory - especially areas of high water yield.

Better future?

Middle Eastern rhetoric often portrays the issue of water as an existential, zero-sum conflict - casting either Israel as a malevolent sponge sucking up Arab water resources, or the implacably hostile Arabs as threatening Israel's very existence by denying life-giving water.

Former UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali may not have been right when he said in the 1990s that the next war in the Middle East would be about water not politics, but a future war over water is not out of the question.

Demand for water already outstrips supply, requirements are rising and current supply is unsustainable.

Hydrologists say joint solutions need to be found, because water requirements are interdependent and water resources cross political boundaries.

That necessitates improved conservation and recycling by both sides.

Improving the political atmosphere would allow supplies to be piped from neighbouring countries. Also crucial, experts say, are investment in desalination and other technical advances.

Such solutions are desperately needed in the medium to long term. In other words, Israel and the Palestinians must work together, because they cannot survive as combatants.

Geotimes
Published by the American Geological Institute December 2000
Newsmagazine of the Earth Sciences
News Notes
Water rights
Sharing water in the West Bank
........
“Water is used as a vehicle to demonstrate power,” says conference speaker Hans Kupfersberger of Joanneum Research in Graz, Austria. Both Israelis and Palestinians depend heavily on groundwater aquifers — specifically the Mountain Aquifer, which runs along the West Bank’s north-south central axis (see map). But common management goals of the aquifer do not exist, he says. “The problem is that until today no serious hydrological investigation has been undertaken.” Others disagree, citing investigations that go back to the 1960s.

Kupfersberger is part of a three-year-old project funded by the European Commission. Due for an April completion, the project aims to develop sustainable water management in the Jordan Valley.

Who controls the water rights? The Upper Cretaceous limestone areas, where rainwater feeds the aquifer, sit below mostly Palestinian territories in the West Bank, says Yoram Eckstein of Kent State University in Ohio, who left Israel in 1974 after 17 years in the nation’s geological survey.

Yet, Palestinians’ per capita water use is an average of 50 liters a day — “half of the minimum recommended by the World Health Organization,” says hydrologist Victor Harris of Montgomery Watson in Pasadena, Calif.

To access the water, approximately 56 wells, some Palestinian and some Israeli controlled, reach depths of 800 meters or more, Harris says. But most of the discharge occurs through water wells within Israeli administration, Eckstein adds.
.

[eubph]

Uh al si dosadan... ali ajde skupicu vremena i snage da ti odgovorim pošto u zadnje vreme mi jako nedostaju oba... Interesantno je to da obadvojica uvek počnemo post sa 'više neću da pričam sa tobom' a istovremeno pišemo sve veće i veće postove! Ajde da počnem iz početka jedan po jedan

1. Izrael kontrolise posle 1967. gotovo 90 posto dotoka vode u regionu, iako se izvori te vode ne nalaze u Izraelu ili se nalaze nagranici Izraela sa susednim drzavama. Rat 1967. je zapravo bio rat oko vode, tj. kontrole nad Golanom.

Kolko grešaka samo u jednoj tvojoj činjenici.
1) Izvori se nisu nalazili u Izraelu ali su svi ti izvori prirodnim putem dolazili nazad u Izrael. Odnosno pre-sex-day-war pre-1967!
2) A šestodnevni rat je bio samo zbog vode? A zašto nisi pomenuo da je Egipat zatvorio Straits of Tiran za Izraelske brodove i da su sve okolne Arapske zemlje ujedineli svoju vojsku i da su njihovi lideri pretili nestanku izraela i istovremeno poslalu svu svoju vojsku na granicu sa Izraelom? video (zanimljivo a plus lepa pesma)
To me i nervira kod tebe zato što menjaš istoriju za tvoje potrebe!

2. Glavni izvori vode su Golan, reka Jordan, Galilejsko jezero (ovo troje je zapravo povezano) i podzemne vode u dolini Jordana, tj. ono sto mi nazivamo West Bank. Gaza i sam Izrael (izvan West Banka) ne mogu ni priblizno da namire svoju potrosnju iz izvora na svojoj teritoriji.

hmmm ne... I ovo nije tačno... Kako onda objašnjavaš to da Izrael izvozi vodu južnom libanu i Jordanu ako nemaju dovoljno vode? Isto izvoze i Gazi i Zapadnoj obali...

3. Nekoliko hiljada izraelskih naseljenika u West Banku i Izrael uzimaju i koriste 80% podzemnih voda iz West Banka. 20% posto ostaje milionskoj palestinskoj populaciji.

Opet ne!
1) Nisi nigde napisao da je Izrael koristio tu vodu i pre 1967 pošto je ta voda na granici...
2) Nigde nisi napisao da ta ista voda se vraćaja u Izrael odnosno pre-1967! I nigde nisi napisao da Izrael konzumira manje te vode nego pre 1950. Odnosno 1950 izrael je koristio 82% pošto je ta voda bila blizu centru izraela i bilo je blize za korišćenje dok su arapi koristili 18%. Pošto su napravili cev sa Galilejskog jezera pa sve do južnog izraela, više nije bila potreba za konzumiranje te iste vode. Odnosno Palestinsko konzumiranje te vode se poboljšalo od pre 50 godina, kad su granice postojale Palestinci su koristili manje te vode nego danas. Plus Izrael im daje još vode preko galilejskog jezera.
conclusion: 'hiljade' naseljenika koriste tu vodu zajedno sa palestincima. Ono što ostane ode u Izraelsku teritoriju koja odatle se opet vraća palestincima i tim 'hiljadama' naseljenika

4. Tel Aviv i okolina se uglavno snadbevaju podzemnim vodama sa West Banka.

Ne! Kao što sam već rekao, imaš cev sa galilejskog jezera pa sve do beer-sheve...

5. Izraelska vojska strogo kontrolise pristup pumpama za podzemnu vodu i Palestincima je ograniceno/onemoguceno postavljanje novih pumpi na sopsvenoj zemlji.

Hmmm da...Po svakakvim zakonima ne možeš da napraviš pumpu pored neke reke i uzimaš vodu. Treba ti dozvola od države ili Palestinke ili Izraelske...
A pod ostalom, od kad im je izrael zabranio da koriste tu vodu, oni koriste više nego što su koristili pre 50g

6. Evropska Komisija i Svetska Banka finansiraju projekte u Gazi i West Banku da bi se poboljsala snadbevenost pijacom vodom, posto je stanje tamo po tom pitanju mestimicno bilo katastrofalno.

To je već tačno... Na nekim mestima jeste katastrofalno. Ali je to uglavnom na nekim selima gde niko neće da plati infrastrukturu do tih sela. Dok u glavnim gradovima na zap. obali možeš da nađeš cevi iz izraela...

Conclusion: Palestinci koriste te vode više nego što su koristili pre 50g. Ta ista voda se opet sliva u Izrael! Izrael šalje tu vodu i u Jordan i u Liban i u Gazu i u Zap. Obalu! + plaćaju manje nego što plaćaju i izraelci... i vi onda koristite neke argumente kako je izrael fašista... Tu isto dodaj i struju i naftu i kanalizaciju...

Ali jedno najjednostavnije pitanje, zašto Arapi koji se uvek oglašavaju kao braća ne pomognu Palestincima u gazi? Ili u Južnom libanu? Zašto Izrael koji baš ti arapi mrze i žele njeno uništenje koriste njenu vodu?
Sirija ima ogromnu reku Tigris i MNOGO više vode nego što ima Izrael, zašto im ona ne pomogne nego traži i izvore koje Izrael poseduje?

Inače ovo je moj odgovor za BBC članak: http://www.camera.or...;x_article=1322

A veoma zanimljivo za čitanje je BACKGROUNDER: Does Israel Use “Palestinian” Water?

...
In addition, every year over 40 MCM (million cubic meters) of water from sources within Israel is piped over the Green Line for Palestinian use in the West Bank. Ramallah, for example, receives over 5 MCM. Israel sends another 4 MCM over its border for Palestinian use in Gaza. Thus, it is the Palestinians who are using Israeli water.
And not just the Palestinians. Despite its own meager supply, Israel annually provided 600,000 CM of water to ten otherwise dry villages in South Lebanon, and provides more than 55 MCM annually to Jordan. Perhaps no other country in the world, facing the severe shortages that Israel does, has shared so much water with its neighbors....

...Palestinian sources broadly confirm this picture. For example, Taher Nassereddin, Director General of the West Bank Water Department, has stated that:

[Palestinian] consumption for domestic purposes has increased as a result of population growth and that there were no severe restrictions on drilling new wells for these purposes. (Taher Nassereddin, Legal and Administrative Responsibility of Domestic Water Supply to the Palestinians, in Joint Management of Shared Aquifers, 1997)

It is important to note, however, that for political reasons some Palestinian villages and towns refused to be hooked up to the new water system, and they therefore may not have a reliable water supply today. Thus, as reported in Audubon Magazine, the West Bank town of Marda:

... like many West Bank villages and towns, had refused to hook up with the Israeli water system in the early 1980’s, when Israeli officials offered them the chance. Doing so, the politicians felt, would legitimize the Israeli occupation. Even the villages that did hook up refused to pay into the Israeli water fund that subsidizes the system’s costs. As a result, Palestinians now pay as much as three times what Israelis pay for water. (Bruce Stutz, Water and Peace, Audubon, September 1994)....

...Thus for 24 CM the Palestinian consumer would have paid $26.86 – that is, 55 cents less than the Israeli consumer paid for the same amount of water...

Primetio sam isto da neki ljudi koji se lakše identifikuju sa nekim narodom, filtriraju članke i vesti u njihovu korist. Naprimer primetio sam u ranijim postovima da neko ko nema pojma o bliskom istoku upadne usred topika i kaže 'kako Izrael i US bombarduju infrastrukturu i civile Libana a ceo svet ćuti'. Posle se ispostavilo da čovek nije znao da US ne bombarduje Liban i da nije znao da su Izraelski vojnici kidnapovani a sigurno nije znao da je to već treće kidnapovanje od kako je Izrael vratio južni liban pre 6 godina! Tako valjda ja i ti... Skontao sam da imaš neke drugove ovde i da ti je lakše da se identifikuješ sa palestincima a meni je mnogo lakše da se identifikujem sa Izraelcima zato što su samo oni moji drugovi. Ja sam takav da uvek gledam za neki kompromis, bio sam za davanje Gaze i + sam za davanje Zap. Obale. Zapadna obala nikad neće da se da tok ovi hamasovci gađaju raketama Izrael i svaki dan traže nešto novo... pa ako im se da Zap. Obala onda će te rakete moći i do tel-aviva da dođu...

Anyway, glavni problem u zap. obali nije voda kao što si ti ubeđen nego je glavni problem novac i mržnja. Ljudi su pre intifade navikli da rade, ili bi Izraelski investitori ulagali u Palestinu ili bi ovi dolazili u Izrael da rade. Posle intifade sve se promenilo... Izraelci su napravili granicu Izrael - Zap. Obala i da je prođeš trebalo bi ti više nego običan pasoš. Ljudi su masovno ostali bez posla i počela je nestašica... U hotelima kojem radim skoro u svim kuhinjama su Arapi iz zapadne obale i Gaze. Od šefova pa do čistača. Često pričam sa njima pa i o problemima kod njih. I svi mi kažu skoro jedno te isto... Novac i mržnja... Imaš neke arape koje uče svoje 11-toro dece da mrze. Da mrze i mrze i mrze... Možeš o tome da proveriš na youtube ako mi ne veruješ a ako te mrzi mogu da ti pošaljem kako 8-godišnja devojčica izrazuje svoju želju da ubije svojim telom što više Jevreja!
Ako mene pitaš, voda nije trenutni problem u Bliskom istoku... Dosta humatarnih AID agencija se brinu o osnovnim potrebama pa kao što je i voda i hrana. Ne mogu pouzdano da ti kažem al čak i da palestinci ne plate vodu Izraelcima onda bi 100 humatarnih agencija platilo umesto njih. To se dešavalo sa naftom, ne znam zašto ne bi i sa vodom. Najveći problem na Bliskom istoku jeste mržnja! To ti i ja sigurno nećemo da promenimo a pogotovo tvojim polu-navijačkim postovima ništa nećemo da uradimo! A šta možemo da uradimo? Pa skoro ništa, izgleda da smo mi, ljudi, takvi da moramo da prosipamo nečiju krv. To smo radili 5 000 godina i to radimo i danas. Ali jedina dobra vest jeste da to prosipanje krvi je sve manje i manje vremenom. To valjda daje nekakvu nadu u budućnost, neko svetlo u mračnom tunelu ali je već vreme da naučimo lekciju...

To bi bilo to... veruj mi da sve što sam napisao u zadnja dva pasusa je bilo najiskrenije od mene...

Edited by konfi, 24 June 2007 - 12:28.

[heathen]

Sunday June 24, 6:06 PM

Israel expels record number of east Jerusalem Arabs

Israel cancelled the east Jerusalem residence permits of a record number of Palestinians in 2006, effectively expelling them from the city, the human rights groups B'Tselem said on Sunday.

A total of 1,363 Palestinians had their residence permits withdrawn last year compared with just 222 in 2005, the watchdog said, basing its figures on interior ministry statistics.

The figure exceeded even the 1997 total of 1,067, the previous highest since Israel occupied Arab east Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war and then unilaterally annexed it.

Palestinians in east Jerusalem have the status of permanent residents of Israel, the same status granted to foreigners who settle in the Jewish state.

"Israel treats Palestinian residents of east Jerusalem as immigrants, who live in their homes at the benificence of the authorities and not by right," B'Tselem said.

"Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing since it was Israel that entered east Jerusalem in 1967."

The watchdog said that a common pretext cited by Israel for withdrawing residence permits was the holding of a foreign passport enabling the Palestinians to emigrate.

"It seems that the interior system has an information system allowing it to identify those Palestinians who hold foreign passports so that their status as permanent residents of Jerusalem can be withdrawn," B'Tselem spokesman Sarit Michaeli told AFP.

"The injustice in this policy stems from the fact that an Israeli can have several passports and spend his life abroad without anyone questioning his status as an Israeli national."

Permanent residence gives the holder the right to live and work in the city and vote in municipal, but not parliamentary elections.

But unlike citizenship, it is only passed on to the holder's children if the holder meets certain conditions.

Since 1996, Arab residents of east Jerusalem have had to prove that they live, work and pay taxes in the city to maintain their residence permits.

A total of 245,000 Palestinians live in east Jerusalem alongside more than 200,000 Jewish settlers.

[heathen]

ILA destroys Bedouin homes to make way for Jewish town

By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent

The Israel Land Administration (ILA), with the assistance of a large police force and IDF soldiers, demolished dozens of tin shack homes Monday in the unrecognized Bedouin villages Um Al-Hiran and A-Tir in the northern Negev.

The ILA is destroying the village built on government-owned land and evacuating its inhabitants so that a Jewish Community named "Hiran" can be established in the area. Fourteen shacks, which housed some 100 people, have been destroyed by bulldozers so far.

Bedouin women attempted to get their children out of the house but police wanted to speed up the process so they grabbed the play pens with the children inside and did not let the mothers come near.

"Tonight we will sleep on the ground", Fajua Ab Abu Al-Cian said.

Young men, roughly 18-years of age, wearing orange shirts are taking part in the evacuation, removed the Bedouin's property from their homes and placing it in piles on the ground outside.

Haaretz has discovered that these teenagers are workers employed by sub-contractors hired by the ILA. According to the evacuators, they are being paid in cash and denied labor rights.

According to Adallah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, the residents of the village have been living there for 51 years. They were transferred to the site in 1956 while under martial law. The land they originally owned was transferred to Kibbutz Shoval, while the Bedouin were leased 3000 dunam of land for agriculture and grazing.

In August 2001 the ILA submitted a report on the establishment of new communities, which included Hiran. The Bedouin residents living in the area appeared under the title of "special problems" that may affect the establishment of the community.

The government approved the establishment of Hiran in 2002, and in 2004 the state submitted a court order claiming that residents of Al Hiran should be evacuated as they are using state lands without permission.

[roux senyurt]

Poslednji put odgovaram na tvoje nesuvisle postove. Zivis u Izraelu, a ocigledno ne poznajes ili neces da znas osnovne cinjenice koje bi svako morao znati, ako hoce nesto da komentarise o politickoj situaciji u regionu. Dakle, krecemo:
1. Izrael kontrolise posle 1967. gotovo 90 posto dotoka vode u regionu, iako se izvori te vode ne nalaze u Izraelu ili se nalaze nagranici Izraela sa susednim drzavama. Rat 1967. je zapravo bio rat oko vode, tj. kontrole nad Golanom.
2. Glavni izvori vode su Golan, reka Jordan, Galilejsko jezero (ovo troje je zapravo povezano) i podzemne vode u dolini Jordana, tj. ono sto mi nazivamo West Bank. Gaza i sam Izrael (izvan West Banka) ne mogu ni priblizno da namire svoju potrosnju iz izvora na svojoj teritoriji.
3. Nekoliko hiljada izraelskih naseljenika u West Banku i Izrael uzimaju i koriste 80% podzemnih voda iz West Banka. 20% posto ostaje milionskoj palestinskoj populaciji.
4. Tel Aviv i okolina se uglavno snadbevaju podzemnim vodama sa West Banka.
5. Izraelska vojska strogo kontrolise pristup pumpama za podzemnu vodu i Palestincima je ograniceno/onemoguceno postavljanje novih pumpi na sopsvenoj zemlji.
6. Evropska Komisija i Svetska Banka finansiraju projekte u Gazi i West Banku da bi se poboljsala snadbevenost pijacom vodom, posto je stanje tamo po tom pitanju mestimicno bilo katastrofalno.
7. Prosecan Palestinac ima znatno manje (oko 50-70%) vode na raspolaganju nego sto propisuje WHO. Potrosnja u Izraelu po stanovniku je oko 4-5 puta veca u zavisnosti od izvora.
8. Gaza se moze snadbevati vodom jedino sa West Banka, preko Izraela. Medjutim, kao sto vec rekoh, Izrael uzima 80% citave vode na ime .

I posle svih ovih cinjenica, ti meni nesto pricas da zivis u Izraelu i da Izrael donira Palestincima ovo ili ono. Mislim da je ipak verovatnije da zivis na Marsu, posto o realnoj situaciji ne znas ili neces da znas ama bas nista, i treba da te bude sramota da pises ovakve gluposti gore.

Moja jedina poenta oko vode i snadbevanja istom je ova: Bez vode nema ekonomije, bez vode nema napretka, bez vode nema kulture, bez vode nema civilizacije, bez vode nema i nikad nece biti mira. Voda je osnovno na Bliskom istoku, oduvek je to bila kroz istoriju, i ona je glavni uzrok sukoba u tom regionu, a ne neki Islamizmi, Cionizmi ili Panarabizmi koji su samo povrsne ideologije da bi se opravdao sukob.

Pitas sta je resenje? Pa recimo da Izrael sa svojim susedima Libanom, Palestincima, Sirijom i Jordanom napravi konacno jedan fer dogovor oko koriscenja vode od koje su svi zavisni. A fer ne znaci da Izrael koristi 90% vode vec recimo 50%, a ostatak da prepusti pre svega Palestincima i Jordanu. Doduse, sa Jordanom postoji vec jedan sporazum, ali to nije resilo problem koji Jordan ima sa vodom. Jos bolje bi bilo da Izrael recimo placa Palestincima vodu u vidu ekonomske saradnje, investicija, izgradnje infrastrukture itd., da bi se region i narodi konacno povezali ekonomski.
Ali, sto bi placali, kada vojnom silom mogu jednostavno da otmu i ne placaju nista, pa cak tu istu vodu prodaju Palestincima u Gazi!? U takvim uslovima, bez vode, i najveci skandinavski levicar bi ispoljio mrznju o kojoj je Nautilus pricao.
P.S. Izvori: BBC website i jedan geoloski naucni casopis, ako imas nesto protiv BBC-a

cini mi se da ti izvor informacija nije bas najtacniji. glavni izvor vode u izraelu je jezero kineret, koje se napaja rekom jordan. izvori reke jordan ne leze u izraelu, nego u juznom libanu, zapadnoj siriji i zapadnom jordanu. hasbani izvor napaja reku jordan iz libana, banias i jarmuk iz sirije, a jabok iz jordana. onaj koji kontrolise ove izvore, kontrolise i reku jordan.
inace, bbc news se pokazala kao veoma pristrasna novinska agencija, tako da je preporucljivo ne uzimati zdravo za gotovo bas sve sto objave.

[comandante]

Posle duzeg vremena jedna dobra vest iz Palestine, oslobodjen kidnapovani dopisnik BBC-a Alan Johnston, iako malo kasno opet dobar potez Palestinaca, jer je bilo ocigledno da je BBC bio uvek na strani Palestinaca, ne bi trebalo Palestinci sa ovakvim glupostima da izgube tu veoma vaznu podrsku.