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#286 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 16:13

Christian Horner has put an alarming horse power figure on Renault's deficit to dominant Mercedes in 2014.

 

"Our engine has 75 horse power less than the Mercedes," he declared to the Italian publication Autosprint.

 

A big argument is taking place at present between struggling Renault - Red Bull's works supplier - and F1's other engine marques Ferrari and Mercedes.

 

Renault and Ferrari are pushing hard for the so-called engine development 'freeze' to be relaxed, but Mercedes is understandably resisting.

 

"If you look at the speed in the corners," Red Bull chief Horner said, "we are always the best. Unfortunately we don't have the power that we need.

 

"When you are 75 horse power down, it doesn't really matter what else you have. What can you do? Nothing."

 

He thinks it is unfair that when Red Bull was utterly dominant in the past, F1 did not hesitate to clamp down on the team's aerodynamic advantages.

 

"I do hope that Renault is able to close the gap for the future, but it's not easy," said Horner.

 

"Because if you freeze a new technology so early, it is very difficult to fix all of the problems that you have.

 

"In the past, always with the aim of slowing down Red Bull, there were no doubts whatsoever about altering the technical regulations when we had all the double diffusers, blown diffusers, flexible parts, engine maps," he added.

 

Horner kaki. Ispada da je Red Bul toliko superiorna sasija da bez problema tuce 3/4 Mercedesovih timova iako ovi imaju 75 konja vise. Malo morgen.


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#287 DASUBO

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 16:18

Ma sad ćemo da stavimo po džak cementa u svaki auto sa mercedesovim motorom ne bi li Horner bio srećan. A to što je RB bio dominantan zbog Njiuevog fenomenalnog dizajna i motora koji je mogao da ispuni tražene zahteve to nema veze. Sad treba kazniti neke druge genijalce samo zbog toga što ne rade za RB i to odma posle prve sezone.

 

A i to indirektno kenjanje po Renou mi strahovito ide na živce.


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#288 Hertzog

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 17:17

Ma sta ce, mora se nekako opravdati pred gazdom, jer sumnjam da je Ditrih zadovoljan sa ovim rezultatima
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#289 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 20:20

Horner argues for twin-turbo V6s with standard ERS
November 21, 2014 at 5:17 pm by Keith Collantine


Christian Horner says Formula One should alter its existing engines to improve the sound they produce and introduce a standard energy recovery system to bring costs down.

The Red Bull team principal, who recently lobbied for a return to the V8 engines which were replaced at the end of last season, is now making the case for a cut-down version of the current power units.

"I think we have to recognise what's been done from an engineering point of view and look to simplify things," said Horner. "Potentially retaining the V6 philosophy, perhaps going to a twin-turbo that would address the sound issues we've had this year, and maybe even a standard energy recovery system would dramatically reduce the costs, dramatically reduce development and therefore the supply price to the customer teams also."

Horner warned the cost of developing the current power units risks driving manufacturers out of Formula One.

"If the development costs stay at where they are we will not attract new manufacturers into the sport and we may well drive current manufacturers out of the sport," he said. "We have to think not just about today but about the future.

"[For] 2015 there's very little that can be done with the regulations. But 2016 an awful lot can be done. And I think that the teams, together with the FIA and the promoter, have to have the responsibility to ensure that those issues are addressed and the sport is sustainable and attractive for new manufactures to come in."

Red Bull and Ferrari had previously tried to introduce a relaxation in F1's engine development rules for next season to increase their chance of closing their performance gap to Mercedes. Ferrari team principal Marco Mattiacci was adamant the engine rules must be changed, but conceded it will no longer be possible for next year.

"Definitely we need to look at something different for 2016 in terms power unit and in terms of regulation," said Mattiacci. "2015 is clear that we'll have to, at the moment, accept the status quo, but definitely we’re not going to accept the status quo for 2016."

"The cost of the power unit is a problem. The fact that we cannot enhance our power unit is a cost for us, for not performing. So these difficulties that the small teams are facing is something that's an issue on the table. I think all these problems are very well connected I think the Strategy Group and F1 Commission are the proper arenas where to touch those points and try to find a common direction.

"But, indeed, 2016 has to be different."

 

:frust:


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#290 alpiner

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 09:44

Torque of V6 engine ‘like Star Wars’ – Coulthard

David Coulthard says he was blown away by the performance of this year’s title-winning Mercedes turbo V6 engine.


Recently at Silverstone, the former McLaren and Red Bull driver tried this year’s controversial ‘power unit’ technology for the first time with a turn at the wheel of the 2014 Williams.
The BBC commentator told Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport: “The power and torque of the engine is incredible.
“You hit the gas on the straight and start changing gear every 50 metres,” said the 43-year-old, who contested almost 250 grands prix through the sport’s fabled V10 and V8 eras.
“The world starts flying past you so fast that you feel like you’re in Star Wars,” Coulthard enthused.
“Only the downforce is a bit disappointing,” he added. “We had more in my last year in formula one in 2008.”

http://www.inautonew...rd#.VHg1XBGir9I


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#291 DASUBO

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 11:08

E sad zamislite koliki su momci majstori kad toliki obrtni moment "spuste" na stazu sa prijanjanjem iz prošle decenije i budu brži nego prošle godine. I to uz trećinu benzina manje.
F1 lost its soul? Yeah, right...
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#292 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 20:18

Even Niki Lauda admits he is not sure what is the future of F1's engine regulations.

 

Bernie Ecclestone revealed last week that he intends to propose during Thursday's Strategy Group meeting that the sport axes the current turbo V6 rules.

 

He wants screaming V8s or V10s with 1000 horse power to return, and said whether or not the governing FIA agrees with his proposal or not is irrelevant.

 

"Well we have six (votes) so if we have four teams want to do that, that's ten. There's 18 votes so that's the majority," Ecclestone told Forbes.

 

Mercedes, so dominant in 2014 at the start of the new turbo era, has warned that if the engine rules are dramatically changed then it would pull out of F1.

 

Ecclestone is quoted by F1 business journalist Christian Sylt: "I think they will do that whenever it suits them anyway because we have noticed in the past the manufacturers do that but I would be surprised if they did."

 

A separate report in Germany's Auto Motor und Sport surmised that the current regulations are undoubtedly complex, as Renault and Ferrari so badly faltered in 2014.

 

The rules also limit their scope to quickly catch up, and make the entry of marques like Porsche and Audi unlikely as the development 'freeze' becomes increasingly more restrictive.

 

Smaller teams, meanwhile, are under increasing cost pressure due to the debut of the expensive technology.

 

One source said the FIA is even powerless to set a 'fixed price' of a customer V6.

 

"That would be an intervention in the market," the source is quoted as saying. "If only one manufacturer does not agree, the FIA would have legal trouble."

 

Ecclestone said: "The trouble is that when this engine was thought up, nobody thought about the side effects."

 

Lauda, Mercedes' team chairman, admitted he is not sure what is going to happen this Thursday and then beyond 2015.

 

"Next year, the engine regulations stay the same as they are now," said the Austrian great. "For 2016, I cannot guarantee anything."


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#293 Dzoni_m

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 20:56

Postoji jos jedan momenat koji matorom ide na ruku. Kriza u Ukrajni. Cena nafte ide na dole. Predvidja se da ce dodci i do 45$ po barelu. Galon u US je pao ispod 2$ a do skoro je bio 3.06$. US proizvodjaci se usrase od para prodajuci one kamioncine od >5000 cm3. Ukapirali su da im ovo dobro dodje + hebu Ruse sa tom cenom a dolar odlazi u nebesa. Klimatski sporazum, odnosno "ugovor o razumevanju" je prihvacen pre par dana. Dakle, sada ce zeleni da skacu po vratu teskoj industriji i zemljama u razvoju (Kina, Indija, zemlje J. Amerike) a automobile ce bar na neko vreme ostaviti na miru. Posto gorivo ide dole, lepo dodje da se prodaju "proverene vrednosti". Uopste me ne bi iznenadilo da vrate V8 ili V10 sa nekom baterijom (tipa 1,5V  :wicked: da bi mogli da ga zovu hybrid) i da opet naprave pometnju na gridu.

Sto bas super, Mercedes dosao ukrkali pare u razvoj, uzece 2 titule i dosta im :)


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#294 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 21:53

Ako se F1 i vrati na velikolitrazne atmosferske motore - nakon sto je skrkana neverovatna lova na novu hibridnu tehnologiju, i to posle samo dve godine eksploatacije iste, sto nema bas puno smisla - i to sve zbog trenutno povoljnije cene nafte, ta racunica ce se vrlo brzo pokazati pogresnom.

 

Cena nafte ide dole jer OPEC pumpa ko lud, do sada su oni drzali visoku cenu smanjenom proizvodnjom ali se to ispostavilo kao mac sa dve ostrice jer je ucinio isplativom eksploataciju naftnog skriljca (Rusija i S. Amerika). Tako da kada imas naftu u svom dvoristo po istoj ceni sigurno da neces kupovati kod Arapina. Zato su Arapi odlucili da sjebu konkurenciju, povecali su proizvodnju, oborili cene, i uskoro ce da bankrotiraju ove koji rade skriljac, pa posle mogu ponovo da nas jebu sve kada opet zavrnu slavinu i podignu cene.

Berni cini sve da zaustavi vreme, jer se ne snalazi u novom svetu - lik jos uvek ceka da internet "prodje" pa da moze bez frke da nastavi da promovise F1 na TV, ali progres je nezaustavljiv i dinosaurusi ce neminovno izumreti. Pitanje je samo da li je tu Berni jedini dinosaurus ili ce uspeti i F1 da pretvori u dinosaurusa i zajedno sa sobom povuce u zaborav.


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#295 Downforce

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 21:55

Ponekad prosto pozelim da nas ova nasa planeta otrese kao slinu kada vidim kako se sprdaju sa tim klimatskim nesporazumima. Ne vidim samo od kakve koristi ce im biti sve te pare kada uragani od 300 km/h budu dva puta dnevno u proseku.


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#296 staneC

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 14:51

To Berni samo diže dim, da bi Mercedes dozvolio razvoj motora.

Neka odlimitiraju max obrtaje,  i to je to.


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#297 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 15:58

To Berni samo diže dim, da bi Mercedes dozvolio razvoj motora.

Neka odlimitiraju max obrtaje,  i to je to.

 

Izgleda da si u pravu:

 

Mercedes is reportedly ready to compromise amid the engine regulations dispute.

 

Backed by struggling Ferrari and Renault, F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone is so concerned about the current turbo V6 rules that at Thursday's Strategy Group meeting he will vote to repeal them for 2016.

 

He rails against the noise, the cost and the complexity, but his major issue is that the regulations as they stand could mean Mercedes' huge competitive advantage is not tracked down even by 2020.

 

"We can all put our money together and have a wager that Mercedes will win the championship next year which is not really the sort of thing we are looking for," he told reporters including Forbes' Christian Sylt in London last week.

 

The latest situation has arisen after rivals Ferrari and Renault tried to get Mercedes to agree to relaxing the so-called engine development 'freeze' for 2015.

 

Those efforts failed, and so Mercedes is now facing the prospect of having the regulations scrapped completely for 2016 by being out-voted at the Strategy Group.

 

"Well we (Formula One Management) have six (votes) so if we have four teams want to do that, that's ten. There's 18 votes so that's the majority," said Ecclestone.

 

According to Germany's Sport Bild, the situation is giving Mercedes - who have said a wholesale regulation change could cause them to quit F1 - pause for thought.

 

The publication said it has learned that Mercedes is contemplating a compromise solution.

 

"Mercedes insiders have already indicated that they would supply their highly-complex and extremely successful hybrid system - without the basic V6 turbo - to the competition.

 

"That way, the current regulations could be maintained without the opponents fearing years of Mercedes dominance," revealed correspondents Ralf Bach and Bianca Garloff.

 

The report said the proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system would be not unlike the standard McLaren-supplied electronic control units that are already deployed by every F1 team up and down the grid.

 

Ovo je jos uvek daleko od onoga sto konkurencija zeli ali je korak ka smanjenju troskova za sve. Mada pitanje kako ce Ferari da proguta ideju da pola njihovog F1 pogona proizvodi Mercedes. Da li ce ovaj predlog biti i korak ka smanjenju dominacije Mercedesa (sto Berni zeli) to vec nisam siguran jer njihova najveca prednost dolazi upravo iz turbo V6 komponente pogona a ne iz "struje".


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#298 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 16:50

Political games
December 16, 2014 by Joe Saward


The upcoming F1 Strategy Group – illegal though perhaps it may one day be ruled – is currently the decision-making body of Formula 1. It consists of six teams and representatives from the FIA and from the Formula One group. Despite a rather poor attempt by some of the team principals to argue that this is a forum for discussion, it makes the key decisions. These are then sent on to the Formula 1 Commission which only has the right to accept or reject those decisions. Of course, if you want to know the membership of the Formula 1 Commission, there is no point in asking the FIA. The only rule that I can find says that “the Commission shall be constituted in
accordance with the Concorde Agreement (or any similar document which may replace it)”, which means that it is confidential. Nothing like a sport with transparent rules…

Traditionally, the F1 Commission has consisted on a member from the FOM, one from the FIA, a member from each competing team, six race promoters (three from Europe and three outside Europe) appointed by FOM, two circuit representatives (one from Europe and one from outside) appointed by the teams, plus representatives from Pirelli, the engine manufacturers and two sponsors (from different market sectors). This means that it has a membership of around 24 people (depending on the number of teams). However, it is not one vote per representative, as there are always 12 team votes – even if there are only nine teams. If the teams vote 5-4, the majority is able to add the additional three votes and so eight votes count one way and only four the other way. In other words if the top five teams stick together the smaller teams have virtually no voice at all. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that the Formula One Group has a pretty dominant position in this set up as no race promoter wants to upset the people who decide who gets a race. The FIA has almost no power in this body.

The next step of the process is that a proposal then goes to the FIA World Motor Sport Council and is either accepted or rejected. One can see that this gives the FIA power to block things. The World Council tends to do what the FIA President wants because the members do not wish to lose the privileges that come with the position and it is very clear that Jean Todt does not like criticism, let alone opposition.

So if the Formula 1 Strategy Group meets and votes on Ecclestone’s idea of bringing back old engines, what will happen? Mercedes will, logically, oppose it. And if you are a Mercedes customer it would be best to vote with them. Thus Mercedes should have three team votes (its own, Williams and either Lotus or Force India, depending on who is included). The Formula One group has six votes and the FIA has six votes so if Jean Todt agreed to cancel the FIA’s new engine regulations then the teams and manufacturers would have to follow suit. Ferrari and Red Bull might follow Ecclestone because they are losing, but McLaren is in a new relationship with Honda and voting to cancel the new engines makes no sense at all. Thus the vote could be eight in favour and 10 against. The proposal would get no further. Any other outcome would likely result in at least one manufacturer walking away from the sport and the ensuing chaos that would come from that.

The view of the commercial people is that a dominant Mercedes is not good for the sport (although we didn’t hear a peep when Ferrari won in a string of titles in a row a few years back). The people who believe in sport say that if Mercedes has done a better job than the others, its rivals do not deserve a leg-up for their lack of similar competence.

The option exists for Mercedes to agree to supply its hybrid systems as standard to all the teams, in much the same way as McLaren now provides the electronic control units. However, the FIA is unlikely to be keen on that idea and could (if the testicular mass exists) block it at World Council level, if the others tried to force it through. If the federation were to back down on this, its relevance in the sport would be virtually gone as its clever engine regulations would have been thrown out and replaced by a right old botch-job.

If the FIA had not sold its right to make unilateral decisions – a disgraceful move in my opinion – then the federation could simply dictate that engine manufacturers be only allowed to supply engines at a fixed cost and thus the small teams would be able to survive. The sport would still be seen as cutting edge and everyone would be better off.


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#299 Rad-oh-yeah?

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 20:20

Bernie Ecclestone has confirmed reports he remains determined to shake up F1's engine rules.

 

We reported that, at Thursday's Strategy Group meeting in Geneva, the F1 supremo did propose to scrap the turbo V6 regulations for 2016 but it did not produce a "definitive result".

 

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport, he made clear his strong desire for 'louder, more powerful and cheaper' engines for 2016, perhaps to be normally aspirated, 1000 horse power and costing just 10 million euros for a customer supply.

 

"An expert group must deliver results (on the proposal) by the end of January," claimed correspondent Michael Schmidt.

 

But Ecclestone told The Independent newspaper late on Friday that at the meeting, in emerged that in fact "Nobody wants to change the engines, they are all happy".

 

"It's not exactly great progress," he is quoted by F1 business journalist Christian Sylt.

 

"The next step is that we will have another meeting in January and the teams will have to come back with something positive. If they don't, we will say this is how it has got to be," Ecclestone added.


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#300 alberto.ascari

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 21:14

Ovo je na neki nacin grozno sto cu da napisem, ali dok on ne rikne, nema spasa ovim nasim drogama, pardon, omiljenom sportu.

Ybg, probao sám, ja ne mogu da gledam GP2, V8 Supercars, WTCC, Indy, na relly se ne lozim, motore nisam nikad voleo....

Ja NEMAM alternativu :-(

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